N*B! Good or Bad? (in Debates)

Definitely seen a few hate comments against this and thought as a new guy I'd be a good person to give my 2 cents and start a lively debate (I love reading threads).

If you axe the new user bonus it is going to make the game a lot less appealing to new players. Nobody wants to join a game where they will never be able to match the top players. The reason being those big players are growing at a speed pretty similar to yours (or higher) and they start out 5 million MPR ahead of you. They are also already skilled at the game and you gotta spend a lot of time messing things up, untraining, buying gear, selling gear, etc... all probably at a moderate loss.

So I think the better idea would be changing it. As a new person I can say that as long as I was able to get to the competitive range I could accept a different system. Perhaps one where it allows you to get within 90% of the biggest players and then cuts you off (and scales back a bit as you get closer) and also has a time limit (so you can't just cruise in the sweet spots forever).

I read in the wiki that NUB was added to the game specifically so new people could catch up, I think it was a great idea then and still is. I can see it getting some safeties so that it can't be abused though.

TL;DR: No way for newbies to catch up is very bad. A different idea is probably palatable.

the N*B does it job, both in C and U form...

People continue to ignore that it's worked time and time again when people bother to actually try.

adsill, do a general forums search for "rolling bonus" to read my argument. We have to have some type of a bonus, but the N*B has limits. It's served well, but it's quite lacking.

How?
What doesn't it do?

Bad. Terrible, in fact.


So the players who started before the N*B existed found the game less appealing? I just don't buy your statement at all.


And nobody is suggesting that.


Provide an even playing field for non-N*B, long term teams.

Killing the N*B without a replacement would. The damage is done, and that damage is that there are too few players in the low levels to be fun, and that gaping hole won't replenish.

As for my problem with the NUB (I'll ignore the NCB), it creates a one-chance game that takes six months. That one chance provides a freakish rocket to the top that doesn't even allow player to keep a fight list for very long. Any player who learns the ropes too late or has a nasty delay in those first six months can end up feeling jaded.

On top of that, it killed any feeling of armor & weapon ladder, which used to be a wonderful part of the game.

While we can't fix the latter problem, we can fix this former. Capping the bonus percentage and stretching out the time frame are bandaids, but the solution lies in overhauling the bonus to a slow rolling variety.

So your issue is not being given a second chance?

Give new players a fresh start that doesn't make every single BA incredibly invaluable

Give them time to learn a bit before plunging into a pointedly important once-allowed bonus period

Offer a permanent solution that doesn't require patches until it is

1) a year and a half long
or
2) 1500% bonus

I mean hell, you already can't keep a fightlist when you've got a bonus, not until you're well into the millions and even then you have to update it fairly often

Fact is, N*B does its job but it does it poorly

Allowing players a 2nd chance would resolve one of the large issues, but I can't imagine any way of doing that with a NUB without opening the flood gates to fraudulent gameplay or further destroying the in-game economy.

Basically, the NCB doesn't provide it in any reasonable way, but a slow RB would solve the problem while still requiring competitive dedication to catch up.

I call shenanigans.

A RB up to 60% of the top mpr wouldn't be too bad. Help until you get into 6 ba regen. You could even make it quite large to push them up quick. From 60% on its fighting with no bonus and hard work to make it the last bit.

Love it Nat! Now this is a bonus I can get behind. Unfortunately everyone else is going to shoot it down because you don't hand them top 10.

Quite frankly, I think that bonus sounds fine, though I'm not one who tries to go after the top 10 and cannot speak for everyone. That brings the player into a competitive range, and that's what we're aiming for.

Sorry, but it doesn't. Try to look at it from the eyes of a new player. If someone stumbles into CB, receives the NUB, and doesn't get hooked into the game or understand how truly active you have to be until it's far too late, that person has a blown one-shot chance.

That's what the NCB is for, right? But it doesn't work that way. To make equal use of the NCB, the player who's just deciding he likes the game now has to dedicate months to earning and stockpiling CBD to get the same chance back.

The NCB is a decent counterpart for vets, but it's a raw deal for walk-ins. "Too bad, you blew your chance" isn't exactly an inviting mantra, but players are told that. I see it as another benefit of the RB.

Ninja'd. My delayed post was a response to Titan's earlier one. Man, I'm easily distracted.

No, it hasn't.

Every time it's 'worked' a flaw in the system was abused. Be it being a 'friend' and room mate of an existing player, spending over 2,000 USD on the run, abusing 1600BA transfers in Wacky XP time or having a miscalibrated bonus.

It's a flawed system that is ruining CB.

adsil, you might want to read through;

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0037cY

To put it bluntly, the N*B system is "the lesser of two evils" (the other one being no bonus at all).
We lack a "good" option.

SOME form of rolling bonus (because there are plenty of forms, and even in each form tweaking the parameters can have wildly different results) would be a much better option overall.

how about a modification of the current system N*B bonus to top 60% granted it doesnt solve the problem of ever increasing N*B rates... but it does make a sensible compromise if NS/jon doesnt like rolling bonus at all

I think he just implied that 3/4s wasn't really your friend Nat...

As for me, I'm confident I could get 5.2-5.4M MPR if I ran an NCB right now, if not higher. I think that does its job quite effectively... If I worked hard, tried and put money in it, I could get upwards of 5.8M. Yup, SHENANIGANS!

That was with reference to I Love Hello Kitty.

It may have been, but it was also very dismissive of the folks who have done what you claim is impossible

Honestly I have come to strongly dislike these threads as there is always two sides completely battling it out and nothing upon nothing happens but a futile argument.

OB is very right.


A buffer that could only be offered by a RB. Sorry guys truth is truth and in this you know it's true. NUB BA is akin to Golden EXP and we all shutter when we see a NUB blindly wasting them, how about we make it not so destructive to their MPR growth to lose a few BA.


Nat, myself and a ton of others have suggested this as a viable solution. I am astounded that this has yet to be implemented. What gives?


Honestly I think either there is no time to code it or there is fear that any new System will kill CB an no amount of stepping back would fix it. This still doesn't take away from the fact something needs to be done before there is no buffer zone left to work with and CB becomes exactly like Eveonline for NPs.


I couldn't have said it better myself. What if the community as a whole ( Just for once ) Signed a petition that they agree to X change and if it fails will accept a Roll Back to the old system. Ie possibly losing a months work but at least getting the gist if the new system could/would work. This could either break into a new system or shut ppl up about X system being the only/right one that could be established to save CB.


SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE CB BECOMES A LOST CAUSE!

*shakes head*

Nov even though you don't like it you have to admit with things as they are in CB we'll only have exactly what it has now and will slowly dwindle over time. Something has to give and if it should be anything it should be us.

You love this game right? Then stop acting like there is not a problem when there is. Is it just that bad? No but with only a few hundred players( I use that loosely btw ) when we had over a thousand a few years ago worldwide it should say something. We can do something now if we choose to acknowledge it, only then can we work on a true solution.

No we didn't.


You can't really do anything, short of attributing to contests like mine, or running your own. Which no one ( except like 3 people ) seem to be trying. Want to do something, quit being chicken little and actually try to get new users. Put up ads, CM new ones, run your own referral contest. Have a well thought out conversation with NS instead of this ^^ stuff.

My point has always been that crying wolf is a waste of time. If CB was in as dire a situation as you claim then wouldn't it be better to spend time working towards improvement rather than making unsubstantiated preemptive claims of it's demise.

Focusing on what you want, rather than what you don't is key.

This is also part of my contest. Get referrals and maybe it will get done. Or did no one except for DoS and Exile even read my thread?

Yes we did Titan although my exaggeration was a few years. At CBs prime there was well over a thousand users now we are a mere couple hundred at best....that is also adding in some for the results of your contest.



Titan its not a lie if it is true. I have done EVERYTHING(in one way or another) you have listed to no avail. This "Stuff" seems to be the only thing to get attention. Does it mean that the foudations of CB are gonna fall tmw? No don't be silly however that doesn't mean we don't have an accumulating problem and since it is not at the "Chicken Little" Stage just yet ppl are ignoring it and blowing it off as insubstantial. Proper Prior Prevention Prevents Poor Performance. If we don't prepare and actually do something CB will fall Titan.



Not if it makes ppl pay attention to a problem that is actually there nov....especially when they don't want to admit that there is even a problem at all.


Not when I do not have the power, fundage, knowledge or time to do anything nov.

I'm optimally utilizing my time by choosing to not ignore the very real possibility that CB is slowly going down the drain. The bonus system helping with said problem by making it increasingly difficult and disheartning for NPs to stay. Disinterest by long term players due to no deep changes to the system or new items. (Very very thankful for all the cosmetic and moderate changes) Sooner or later the impact will hit home I'm really really hoping for sooner.

There nothing wrong with paying attention to something like this and voicing it nov as a matter of a fact I call it a civic service and a wake the hell up call. Not facing the truth is a fallacy of epic proportions.


I'm doing exactly that nov. By seeing what I know for a fact I don't want I am advocating for what I do want.

I don't remember when CB had reached a thousand players either, but then again, I never really kept up with that stat. I'm sure there was a thread about it, though, since a thousand active users would be a fantastic milestone for this little game. Could you provide us with a link, Z?

Its in the waybackmachine and I am on my phone right now so you guys could get to it more quickly than I could.

I believe CB1 was over back in 2003... I don't think CB2 has ever been.

The highest 7 week active number I've seen so far is about 675 from early 2004.

Someone should have told me. The last time I logged into CB1 was in Sept. 2005. :( (waybackmachine)

No one is denying that the userbase is smaller than we'd like.
You claiming (along with tens of others) that the game is dying doesn't draw attention to a problem, it creates one. That kind of attitude is so exclusively negative it offers little chance to improve the situation.
Please consider this a request as a friend to be careful and consider what your posts look like to new users.

Besides why bring ppl into a game that is having problems on the scale we are having them? We need to fix said problems then recruit not the other way around.


Small......omg you are not serious are you? It is dangerously small nov do not attempt to try and make the problem seem small when it is not by any means.


You and everyone else averting their eyes doesnt make the problem go away either nov remember that.Also note that at least a few of us have a bit of foresight here and are attempting to advert it the only way we know how.....telling the people that are in a position to open their eyes.


Have you paid attention to yours nov? Turning your eyes from and not addressing a readily apparent problem will do the exact same thing. What do you think I mean to do here run NPs away? You know far diferent I have been attempting to advocate addressing a problem this is absolutely not going away. I'm choosing to face it and give suggestions on fixing it. what are you doing again? Oh yeah you are telling me to calm down and be quiet. I am calm nov and no I refuse to be quiet as that is what is prolonging the problem.....procrastination and silence.



Yeah I see the wave of CBs future coming.........

We need to fix CB *before* we try to get new users in, or they won't stay.

They won't.

If they wouldm they would have already.

CBs problem isn't that folk don't know about it. It's problem is that *CB doesn't interest enough to for folk to stay*.

Honestly a full and complete restart would fix the problems for another few years :p

It wouldn't fix anything. It would just get rid of it for a few years. Sweep it under the carpet.

That's what I just said basically..

But to be honest this game just isn't designed to go on forever, if you look at how dd spells work versus tanks or even uc tanks. Were going to have even more problems on our hands in the coming years..

Nov, it *can't* create a problem that already exists...

Some do stay but this is because of some of the Vets complete adoration for the game bleeding over to them. I know I have had a few message me and say thanks for giving them a reason to stay.

I Love this game and have fought for it before and will continue to fight for it to the bitter end. I just don't want the end to come sooner than later if it doesn't have to and the only way for that to be a reality rather than a fantasy/false hope is for some Big Changes to happen.

If no one advocates for those Big Changes...........

Bingo! I'm glad you said it, so I didn't have to say it for you. This has been a few user's mentality for a long time. "CB is broken." Well I'm going to say CB is not broken, you are. You gave up on CB. Why quit trying Zen? Because you gave up. Changes are being made, NS, Fex, Lammy, myself and tons of others are working on it. For gods sake what do you want us to do? Well, it doesn't matter what we do... you've already given up on it. I'll keep working and trying to improve CB, and continuing to gain a handful of new users a week at a time, while you belittle our efforts and talk about a broken game that only goes to hinder our progress. So, who should you been having this discussion with, us, or yourself?

Did you even read zenai's previous post?

There are for surely parts of cb that are broken, no one can argue that..

Pay attention if you would Titan to my earlier post and GL's for that matter. We are not belittling anything we are pointing out that while the small to moderate changes are great they do not solve the bigger underlying ones. Until you fix those CB is still a NP sieve. Get as many NPs as you want once they see the larger underlying problems they will still leave no matter how much you cosmetically change CB it will only prolong their departure. I'm in no way giving up I'm facing reality and honestly so should you, Fix the Big Problems then work on the smaller.....recruiting will actually do itself after that happens.

Ever notice a huge problem with CBs Active User Base when Jon was around and constantly working on and fixing those big problems? No? I didn't think so that should tell you something right there. When the User Base sees the bigger problems get addressed they tend to stick around a lot longer.

I have read every post in this thread.


Very few "unarguably" broken parts. One part of the tutorial is about the only thing that comes to mind.

Just throwing in, as a new guy etc...

First, you guys should calm down on the 1v1.

Two, as a new person, I can PROMISE you hearing that my NUB is the most priceless thing ever and I'm wasting it by fighting for 60% bonus isn't very heartening. Also hearing it calculated so that the best person can be top ten doesn't really make any more allure. I'm not the best, I'm not near it :P I'd rather something that helps me get to the general area of competition. And it doesn't have to be guaranteed. Give them 6 months of the current NUB or 80% (number isn't terribly important to the argument) of the max MPR attached for exp. Then give them something similar for the cash section. Perhaps 6 six months or 10m (again I'm guessing on numbers) gained purely from the bonus amount. Not counting wacky times obviously (they should be able to fight for bonus cash without hurting themselves).

First off this proves the point of my previous post. Secondly, you're wrong, I've given up on trying to show you how you're wrong. Thirdly, many of the changes being worked on are anything but minor and cosmetic.


Comparing apples to oranges, no going to go into more detail. Wouldn't do me any good.

A list of what's being worked on, and potential timescales would help for starters...

We have a CPC, but ther'es no feedback to the ocmmunity. None at all.

We've been told that 'things are being worked on' since before last xmas.

So, what are they? And when can we expect them?

No, he's not.

I don't always agree with Zen, but on this I do. And a seive is a very good analogy.

Roddy (2071169)
Drknow (1001315)
Sienna (809812)
Type 4 Demon (619482)
Crow's Claw (428022)
budkis (316404)

Figure it out GL.

Lol that's awful when a nun has to tell ou guys to calm down..

Can we bring his back on-topic? Theres some good stuff in here and I'd hate for this thread to get closed because you guys don't know how to play nice :)

Then go back and re-read them because in your zeal to discredit me you have missed a few key points.


The Bonus System IS a problem. A very BIG problem not exactly right now but like OB said when it gets to say 1500% and. Year and a half long will you say it's not? We need to make sure that when we get ppl in and through the Tutorial that we can keep them here.

Another Bonus System is going to be a necessity this is what the conversation started with in the first place before ppl attacked the "Negativity" of my post. Get real ppl we can see the problem, its not here right now per se but this is something that will NOT go away and is only going to get bigger the longer it is not addressed how is it that you cannot see this?

Nub* dang autocorrect ;p

Exactly *how* can I do that Nov?

Andno, getting more player sin isn't the answer, becuase that doesn't fix the problem *I* see.

So, what can I do?

I've suggested changes, I've complied lists of what I think needs to be fixed. I've offered my own teams, time and items in efforts to fix these problems.

*What else can I do?*

Please tell me...

That answers *nothing* Titan...

If you want, I can counter that easily by comling a list of the plyers that have recently stopped playing.

Like JS, Slayer and even Zen.

Countdown to thread lock...

I pointed out a very real problem and gave what I thought could be a solution. What in the hell is so wrong with doing that? Is the above suggestion THAT terrible? I mean seriously is it?

The vast majority of the people against the rolling bonus are:

A) either already at the top

Or

B) have ran successful ncbs in the past..

I don't think there is a problem with the bonus system. However I do believe that there is a problem. I believe that it lies with the regular game and how it works. I have made some suggestions before on what could be done to help fix the problem. The problem as I see it is simply this, it is too easy especially once you get up into 6 ba regen to get very near maximum potential rewards. With everyone getting so close to the same amount the game stagnates up there.

People feel that the n*b isn't working because if they don't make it all the way up with their try they feel the absolute need to do another complete run because they feel that there is no way to continue to move up the ladder in the regular game. While this is not actually true, it is quite possible to move up the ladder in the regular game it requires a very significant amount of investment for a small feedback. The difficulty involved makes the n*b a much more attractive answer and also gives a sense of hopelessness because they continually start over.

A little side note. A complete reset would be a bad idea. It wouldn't be good for player retention at all.

You don't see any issue with a bonus that is at either 1500% or lasts for a year?

You don't see any issue with a bonus that makes every BA from the very beginning incredibly valuable to the user, without offering any pre-bonus learning period?

Fair warning: I've just removed two posts that were personal and not actual 'debate' from this thread.

In future I will continue to do so.

Debate and contest ideas to your hearts' desire but anything that falls to the 'No you suck' line of thinking will be pruned.

I'm glad you all care enough to discuss this, now let's keep it clean and above belt.

I have already said that we need a tutorial tourney for new players to learn in before they start their nub. And no I have no problem with a 1500% bonus because you have to grow either the amount of time a bonus lasts or the % that the bonus needs to be in order to make up for the increasing amount of time they are making up.

Yeah....while Loch was typing up that post, I pretty well pruned the thread clean of personal attacks. If anyone is unhappy with the editing, direct your complaints my way :)

I wish folks could just understand how brutal negativity is to a development environment. Stamping your feet when someone asks you nicely to be patient just isn't ok. The folks working on CB are giving their all, and I'm sorry it's not good enough for some of you. Please consider the feelings of the people working hard to solve real problems when belittling their efforts.

I disagree. A rolling bonus is a set bonus amount, and the amount of time that it lasts varies according to the player. Even if you increase the bonus cap, the time period only decreases if the player puts out the effort.

as 1 of the top new players i gotta say this.. cb is broken. the game is very unbalanced the NCB is a cruel joke and the NUB is not a whole lot better. as for need to fix before re-population? absolutely a need. i've tried to no avail to get the ball rolling but nobody wants to admit the core economic and fighting gameplay is broken. until we all admit it we are gonna be in trouble

I said earlier that I think a RB up to 60% of the top mpr even a high bonus one would be fine. The big thing it would do though is emphasize the problem with the regular game.

I agree with you there as well. I feel that it is far too difficult to make a change in your standing - it involves months and months of effort for very tiny steps forward - and I think personally that the problem begins with the BA regeneration rate. Once upon a time, regeneration was */10 minutes, and there was no 6 BA regen rate. Deciding you wanted to take the time to dedicate yourself and hit all your BA was a good way to make strides forward.

As unpopular as the thought is, I feel that a high BA regen rate is good BECAUSE a lot of people will not hit it, and that creates a means for others to advance. If everyone can hit all their BA, competition in that arena disappears - and if that is the case, why not simply eliminate BA and just make teams grow on a linear scale while we train them? The effect is the same.

(tl;dr - something about normal gameplay needs to change, and I feel that one of those things is BA regeneration rates)

The way PR works too, I hate that new players join up and immediately go "why am I penalized for putting on armor and a weapon"

to novice its not that we don't understand. here is what i learned from cb so far its that we spend a whole lot of time here we grow passionate about this game. we see flaws and we feel the devs are not hearing our cries. i think i speak for everyone when i say if we just had NS or you or anyone tell us what is in the pipe we might chill out a bit.

What I just don't understand is how people who just got here can tell a game that's existed for nearly 10 years that it's core components are unplayable.

There was a post a while back where NS (or was it Nat or Nov) explained the problem with giving pipeline hints.

Basically, saying what changes you are working on creates expectations.
If it proves impossible/unfeasible/unbalanced to make those changes then you get a legacy of broken promises. It might work the first time, but then the cynicism avalanche would begin.

No offense but it really gets on my and many others nerves when we are told nicely to shut up when a "REAL" problem is brought up. The Bonus System is by no means a small, insignificant or a fake problem. No others actions or performances were not belittled, if you/they felt they were then that is on you/them. I/others said it very quickly that ALL efforts are appreciated and they are. What we pointed out though is that while small to moderate problems were being addressed (which once again is great) is STILL not addressing the Big Problems like the Bonus System. That is a true statement what else do you expect it to be? What is a better way to say it?


Listen to that folks a NP has summed up what Vets have been saying for YEARS when are you gonna finally listen?


Still not one person has answered my question/statement. What is so wrong with getting the community together to do a New Bonus System Trial run for a Month? This could solve a great many problems with repetitive discussions/debates and could possibly bring back the community has big input/contribution feeling again. Bringing ALL of us together is something this game really needs right now so please answer me what is so wrong about this suggestion?

I think Nats idea is a good one I would try it for a month:


Yes other problems need to be solved but one thing at a time. The Bonus System is the most open and widely seen one at present so that one should get taken care of first. As more "Deep" problems become visible then they should be taken care of as well.

Or
C) Bob.

You say nobody has answered this question; the problem is, I don't know how to answer it, because I don't know how that is possible.

I don't see anything wrong with a developer deciding to do a new bonus system trial. I think that would be great.

I don't have a clue how "getting the community together to do a new bonus system trial" would work. The community can get together and just change the game? Or if you meant a developer running a bonus system trial, what does that have to do with getting the community together? It just seems like phrasing thrown in there to make the idea seem more "feel-good." Like a politician saying he'll bring about great changes, because he's a family man.

So there's my answer, for one. :)

Well there is always the Community to think of in light of a Change so Big that it can affect every player in the game. There is a chance for player to say eh I freaking quit right off the bat. However signing say a petition stating "Hey we're saying it's cool to do something this big and we know it might not work!" It'll help a bit with everyone to feel involved and take a bit of player retention stress of he developerland helpers) to even try something new on this large a scale.


No but having the Community on a whole be involved in something this large could do wonders for the Game on a whole. With the feelings of involvement, players will feel less detached and thus less likely to feel abandoned by those they trust to upkeep the integrity of the game.


I think and feel that the Developer and Company should work hand-in-hand on something this large and game affecting with the Community. The community involved, the developer feeling free of pressure of losing 90% of the player base over a chancy change and a general openness for everyone.

Zen, are you indicating "speechless"?

Bast: Yes I am considering I offered an Idea that includes everything that everyone has indicated in some way they wanted

Different Bonus System: You get to try it out and see if it works.

Alternate Bonus is not the answer: It can be proven or disproven once and for all.

Developer and Community Involvement: Both working together on a massive project together.

Community Togetherness: How can you not be with something of this magnitude?

Less Pressure on the Developer: With the community in agreement the Developer is free to try something they would not before.


and no response........incredible.

The Louise Veronica Ciccone(s) of the world have nothing further to add.

In reference to yourself, me or everyone else?


On a side note if I were to add anything it would be if the Developer were extra nice to everyone he would award a certain amount of exp to everyones account/char. Call it consideration for the loss of a months work.......maybe as a little something to make up for it :-)

Game ate my post, so trying again.

How about a system where anyone with VPR from 0-80% of the top VPR is on a sliding scale? Closer you are to 0 the bigger the bonus, the closer you are to 80% the lower, once you hit 80% no more bonus. Bonus only works for EXP.

Cash would still be NUB style with a constantly growing set system.

The big difference would be that N*B could be done away with and the system would naturally accommodate the inflation over time. Also newbies wouldn't be penalized for their natural actions.

Comments/Suggestions? (Be nice!)

A system like that would either require the removal of bought ba entirely or else be very small. If you make it only go to a smaller % then it isn't so important that people are taking advantage of the system. 60% is high enough to get you up to the competitive levels but low enough that people won't use it as a fall back and enjoy the extra money from not buying ba.

Offers less results for good players, similar results for the casual folks and would require a significant amount of coding.
80% of the top MPR would currently take you to around 5.2m mpr, just squeaking into the top 20 mpr.

The main idea is to give the casual/new players a way to catch up that doesn't require them to be perfect. Perhaps make the base system the proposed idea (the recoding should be trivially easy) and keep NCB around as a way for people to do their 'runs' when they are experienced?

I hadn't considered bought BA, but I figured keep it the same, it costs money either way. NUBs could afford to buy it more easily and older players could put it to better use.

Back in tha day. NUBs got full cash and ebded up losing out on growth because they either spent it all upgrading items or sold it out for USD. To prevent this from becoming too huge of a problem to control Jon made the BA costs come out of Cash ahead of time. By pre-purchasing the Daily Bought BA the system couldn't be abused (as much) or fail the NP by default.