You know what is real OP? (in General)

-Displacement Boots-

Compared with Elven boots it's not even a competition. At first glance you might think the extra dexterity is nice, but it means nothing when they have +150 points of evasion on you or even more, thanks to there DB's and then your dexterity is shot to nothing.

-Scenario 1-
I fight against Priestess of the Moon and all my shots fly by him. Why is that? His DB's are 202 and on top of that he is getting evasion from his RoBF (not much but some). So in the end he has a rough estimate of +215 points of evasion, and a slight dexterity advantage also.

-Scenario 2-
I fight against Guernica and smash him with my exbow in round 1, his strength is crippled to nothing. He has chosen to go the route of Elven boots, his are at the moment +27. His overall dexterity is nearly a whopping 11 million O.O, with my dexterity being just over 5.2 million. But yet I still manage to hit and cripple him to nothing.


Honestly I can only think of two scenario's where EB's are better than DB's, and that is when you are running a NCB and want to keep your power low for a better challenge bonus or if you are trying to beat up on mage teams.

I kind of wish dexterity meant a little bit more than it does at the moment. Right now you could have a dexterity of 5,000,000 and beat every tank setup in CB if you had a large enough pair of DB's. And that is just utterly disgusting, with next to no strategy involved.

Evasion > db

Evasion trained on a tank is silly.

That is experience that could be better used somewhere else. Just some numbers for you cause I was curious one day lol. You would need 97,000,000 experience to achieve 250 points of evasion lol (1.87 million mpr). A +250 pair of DB's costs just a little bit over 150 million, well within reach for even non US dollar users.

Isn't that insane to think it is more worth your while to actually invest in DB's rather than to train it?

He gets more than 215 evasion in ranged, b/c of the multiplier to his RoBF evasion. (I'm just assuming you didn't include this, if you did, my apologies.) Also, EBs are better for UC minions and jig/junction teams. But yeah, DBs rock.

Got +230 DBs
11 Million + Dex (Raw//Trained)

There are still Tanks in the game that can hit me, usually with an ExBow, and take me down few though they may be. On the flipside I suffer from my DBs......the + adds to more PR and of course lesser rewards....the fun side is NO AC which sucks..... so yeah they have upsides true(Hit me if you can!) but they also have a downside as well(If you do hit me I done for).

EBs add AC and Add to Dex//Skills by 1% per plus, If there was not such a need to circumvent getting hit in the first place I would be wearing EBs that's for sure!

Even with only a 20cth, the odds of someone hitting you over 4 rounds is about 60%. With 10cth, it's still 35%. So, assuming your Dex isn't infinity, you're going to get hit sometimes.

What I find hilarious, is if you're a exbow tank, and can manage to get just 25cth, and last all 6 rounds of ranged (well really the first 5, since you go first in round 6); There is a 82% chance that you will have hit the person sometime during the battle, guaranteeing a win. That means you need less than half of their DX and no pth to win 82% of the time with an exbow. Problem is, 82% of the time isn't good enough on offense.

Numbers are not so far off titan lol.

Guernica 86 11 0 0 88.66

Sorry, this is slightly off:


It's close to like 3/4s of their DX, I forgot ranged penalties.

Evasion + Elven Boots > Displacement Boots

It results in more evasion, but I wouldn't say its better.

Dexterity & BTCH > Evasion/DB

Evasion is currently detrimental to my team. I would happily trade the inherant Evasion of UC for some sort of damage reduction instead.

Endurance, Steel Skin, whatever.

THISSSSSSS

I remember when Jig was awesome because it had its own inherent endurance. :( I want some for myself.

They aren't currently enough to keep the big ELB users from destroying you as is... were they to be further nerfed what would replace them in that role?

Novice I thought I would fix your comment since it is skewed.

Horsepucky... I can't fight you specifically because the exbow is crippled in early ranged. You double hit me regularly in round one!

If it makes you guys feel any better I can't hit any of you with slayer's exbow any more than I can with my own even though it has over 200 more pth.

;)

Dex and BCTH > the PTH/Evasion battle

It's been lopsided since Jon changed Defensive Dex and Evasion not being able to reduce Dex based BCTH.

More horsepucky nov you hit me once and I'm done end of report, so honestly you don't think it is high + weapons? What is the + on your ExBow again?

Nevermind here it is:

laser cannons [4x6332] (+290) worth $264,957,941 owned by QB novice (Construct)

Tied with the #2 highest + ranged weapon in the game.

Only SHD's is higher:

An Elven Long Bow [6x24750] (+297) worth $421,978,548 owned by SuperHD (Vectoidz)


Long Story Short DBs Re meant to Subtract the "+" from opponents Weapons. Our current Strategy Hornlocking has nothing to do with what DBs are meant to do so please let's leave it out of the thread as it has no basis for being in it.

You always, always, always hit. Unless I double your dex with mine I've got no chance of you ever missing. I on the other hand would have to add another hundred PTH to be able to add you to my fightlist.

The comparison is silly.

BCTH at its finest...

I have 11 Mil Dex Raw and 16:5 With my ToA so yes the comparison there is indeed silly since what you are attempting to compare is BCTH against Double Dex instead of PTH(of Weapons) against -PTH(DBs).

What I'm comparing is;

BCTH of the ELB (100)
BCTH of the EX (56)

Max Dex CTH ELB (200)
Max Dex CTH EX (156?)

and that's leaving out the much larger to hit penalty in the early
rounds for the exbow.

In one instance dbs are quite effective, in the other they are much much less likely to cause complete misses.

Back up a sec. You're saying DBs are OP because they stop the exbow?

Hell no, my point was that further nerfing them would hand the game to the big ELB.

The fact dbs are an effective defense against the exbow is equally important.

I was referring to the OP.

i dont know... all im seeing is exbow is OP :)

My point noov is that DBs are effective against ANY high "+" Weapons both Ranged and Melee.

The generality of Massive ELB taking over if they are nerfed further is moot since 90% of the players using a Massive ELB are also using DBs.

Furthermore as Titan so eloquently pointed out even with massive Ranged Penalties you still have a higher chance of a hit than you are portrying nov.

What's helping me to win against you(keep it from being 100% win for you) is that I'm hurting your dex since I have more than double yours presently add in +230 DBs and of course it's gonna be hard to hit me.

Effective? Are you smoking crack?

With an AoI and dbs I live two rounds (three if I'm lucky).
All that minus to hit only cuts you to around 150 CTH in round 1.

So train some more DX.

That was when I was matching his dex, there are threads of all this

Am I the only one who is wondering how the original scenario that compared 4mil NW EBs with 88mil NW DBs is proof of anything being OP other than NW?

My 69mil BoTH is hella OP compared to a 4mil NW Morg....

I just don't see calling OP on anything based on the original post.

The way I see it, BTH and NW are overpowered :). Also, Dbs may be overpowered but the evasion skill itself is underpowered.

I'd like to see someone try to pull off single minion training 50% dex, 50% evasion with DBs, AoI, and RoBF see if they can kill tanks while only having 20 HP.

That would be amusing.

As Nat has recently pointed out, it's more efficient to just train evasion if you're not going tank.

I was surprised when I read the changelog that BTH can never be reduced. 100% hits used to be a mage only thing.

I was wondering what would happen if you took an Elbow with 0 pth and pumped every little bit of NW into the x. The ToA would take care of the pth. What would the damage be like?

the damage would still be crap

I did just that in some tourney's, and Zenai did it as well as anyone ever could. Eventually he took advantage of the huge bump taking the plus to 100 offered.

I dunno about that Tal. I used Jir's ExBow and I hit every other round for about 600K a pop. It's low for what I am used to using since I have a X60K ELB but overall still nasty considering.

Nov take this into consideration and Ill digress from further convo on this with you. 2/3 Minion Teams like LR's(Monkey Mandate) would be the ones to rule the game. Massive Evasion/UC Teams with huge Jigs will stomp the crap out of all the tanks if DBs were nerfed. Single Minion Archers(Tanks) like myself that depend HEAVILY on DBs for Defense wouldn't stand a chance if they were nerfed. Furthermore ALL high "+" Weapons users would get an automatic boost from the lack of lost PTH.

Would you like to put it to the test? CM me and we can work out a testing time.

+200 | $86,335,952

Thats pretty pricey. Well over a years worth of NW (you you could not buy your BA either!) With no NW invested into anything else.

Just another case of NW > anything (except challenge bonus I guess).

I'm not even disagreeing with you Zenai. dbs are fine.

50% Evasion, 50% HPs and the rest of your setup and I think at least a few of the big tanks would go down. Just not the ones with massive HPs.



Oh on that part I know nov, my bigger part of the disagreement with you is this: Massive ELB users would suffer more than most as 90% of them use DBs. All of the Massive "+" Weapons both Ranged and Melee would get a boost AND ExBow Users would be more prevalent and nasty(SM ones aside).

ELB users would not take over the game as you prophesied in fact they would be damaged to the point of uselessness if they rely heavily on DBs for their defense unless they go through a massive Strat overhaul.

Massive ELBow users aren't a defensive strat. Thier power comes from thier offense.

Remove DBs and it wouldn't impact ELbows team *half* as much as the Melee teams that require Evasion/DB to at least try to live to Melee versus the Large ELBow teams.

Personally I'd run elven boots on an ELB team.

I agree with GL, I thought the goal of the ELB was to kill them in under 5 rounds, 6 with HoC.