Encumbrance and Evasion (in Changelog)

Evasion's ranged bonus is now 1/3 what it was. (I.e., 2/3 *less*.)

1H weapons do not miss the first round of melee.

Encumbrance.

Encumbrance works like this: you can equip a certain amount of NW without being encumbered. This amount depends on your HP and ST, and to a lesser degree (25%, to be precise), on your skills and spells trained. All the exp trained in these areas is added up and converted to a NW number. If your equipped NW is over that number, you take a linear penalty to evasion, DX, ST, AC, and DD damage.

The exact NW amount will be shown on your Equip page (it isn't yet, but will be RSN), but it can fluctuate in battle based on GS or EC enchantments. (AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.) The overall effect of encumbrance is shown post-battle.

I fear the worst for some

"This amount depends on your HP and ST"


"but it can fluctuate in battle based on GS or EC enchantments. (AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.)"


?

if you're cut down to 1/3 your ST and DX by someone's EC, will encumbrance skyrocket for you?

Just a question, how exactly is tattoo NW taken into account ?
I'd hate to see a huge encumbrance from a heavily oversized tattoo that's only used at a fraction of its "power".

Anyone want a to give me a BoTh for my Morg?

> if you're cut down to 1/3 your ST and DX by someone's EC, will encumbrance skyrocket for you?

yes

> how exactly is tattoo NW taken into account ?

I should have said that to begin with: tattoo nw does not count towards encumbrance at all.

don't think tattoos will be a problem since they have a mtl.

"They shrink to fit nicely"

"This amount depends on your HP and ST"

"but it can fluctuate in battle based on GS or EC enchantments. (AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.)"

? lol

The HP granted by AS don't count toward your native HP, which let you have a higher encumbrance value. Not sure why that's confusing.

HP granted by AS is not taken into account with encumbrance, while your original trained HP will have an effect.

Well, I can only assume it means AS is taken into account at the 25% "spells" rate, as opposed to the full 100% of HP "equivalent"... whereas the ST (which is also counted at 100%) does take into account actual ST after combat enchants (or maybe even during combat if you get hit by a ST-drain bow... or heck, maybe even as minions die, no idea).

Does this mean that EO affects encumbrance while ED does not?

Oh, i missread that i guess, =/

I read it as HP does not count towards it, Sorry, >.<

Well I added 25% to my PR and lost half of my fight list. I hope something is broken and gets fixed,

Sweet got a Both with money from my disenchanted Morg

Lol

Ok, maybe I'm not getting this.

When I fight Army Of One fully equipped, I get an Encumbrance of 0.54.

When I take my 38 mill NW Morgul Hammer off, I get an Encumbrance of 1.00.

So does equipping a melee weapon actually reduce Encumbrance? Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?

Also, why did my PR go way up? Did the weapon allowance also get changed?

Godsend defeated King of Pain (Battle Royale) after 13 rounds of combat

hehe gotta love this :) I think all those USD spenders had just OVER encumbered themselves :)

Woot! The 1H weapon change = instant sale on my BoTH auction, which I thought would never sell :P

Lol @ Lumpy ;)

I have a base decay. on that minion, i have 0.8 Encumberance. Is my decay going to be 80% less effective?

"1H weapons do not miss the first round of melee."

so, no matter what the scenario is like, 1h will get a 100% hit rate on during the first melee round?

Well, the cool part, seems I get 0.00 Encumbrance even with all my gear on (well, just a pair of +73 DBs actually, since hooray, the tat NW doesn't matter, and I usuall fight with the RoE anyway, at least until I hit a MTL higher than my ToE's level, maybe longer).
Seems to be pretty A-ok in my book ;)

Barzoo, you have to thank him for the Disenchant too =) where do you think the cash came from?

It would appear that Weapon allowance has either been changed or removed as part of this changelog.

so encumbrance doesnt decrease HP? :) that would mean walls are still a vaiable thing to invest in

With a few tweaks and fixes this could turn out to be an awesome change.

Right now, some things don't seem right.

> so encumbrance doesnt decrease HP?

correct

> that would mean walls are still a vaiable thing to invest in

sure, although your AC may be less than before

from chat:

> if 1 of my minion has encumbrance, the rest of the team is not affected?

correct

FTW defeated Koyaanisqatsi (Battle Royale) after 24 rounds of combat

Thank you jon

I'm going to be forging until this thing works itself out. Right now my character has become unplayable. Wall and tank gear is danged expensive. Unless changed this will mean the death of any strategy that requires survival for more than 6 rounds.

Warning to clannies: Tank Killer is not in a clan until this blows over.

What a crappy change. I lobby to remove all NW restrictions and just pump PR based on affects and instead it goes the other way. Once again high priced items are being penalized far beyond their affect.

Jon, you blew it this time.

> What a crappy change. I lobby to remove all NW restrictions and just pump PR based on affects and instead it goes the other way.

the first time a change doesn't go the way you wanted is always tough.

thanks jon! : )

Any chance of the opponents encumbrance being added to the battle log somehow?

jon... i think the ratios have to be relooked... i think tanks are getting errm over nerfed

I agree with Lostling, but I think the biggest problem right now is in the massive PR increase. I think if Jon fixed that things would be close to where they need to be.

> I think the biggest problem right now is in the massive PR increase

that will solve itself as people dis-encumber

Brand new 1 Handed Weapon

In round 2 (1st melee) versus lostling

Vaan's blow was dodged by Lucifer

The encumbrance on leather equipment may be a little over the top.

A lone pair of +10 leather boots for example would encumber a 10k MPR character.

I am super confused how this works Jonathan.
My tank minion Random has the below numbers.
Encumbered at: 82,071,554

Unequip my 75 mil NW MH
Encumbered at: 82,071,554

Unequip my 58 mil NW MSB
Encumbered at: 82,071,554

Unequip both MH and MSB
Encumbered at: 46,349,051

Can you tell me why unequipping two huge items is not changing my Encumbered number?

Also, I no longer am able to hit anyone in ranged or melee at all. Was this the desired change? Also my PR raised almost 1 mil and I lost my complete fightlist.

"1H weapons do not miss the first round of melee."

means that 1h weapons does not lose a round to switching from bow /sling/xbow to 1h weapons

just as clarification, what would an encumbrance of 3.8 mil mean?

Meteor Phoenix, that would mean that when using over 3.8M NW of equipment, that minion would be encumbered and suffer a penalty to attacks and whatever else Jon listed.

jon... could we get 1 Encumbrance number for the WHOLE team? the way it is... its really hard to distribute your NW...

"With a few tweaks and fixes this could turn out to be an awesome change. Right now, some things don't seem right."

I take back everything I said earlier. What I thought was "not right" just turned out to be a second tank nerf. Taken together with the allowance nerf, this is a terrible change, an absolute catastrophe for my team, and along with the auto-scroll feature earlier this month, is an absolute game breaker for me. Unless things get tweaked back to a level where they are at least tolerable, I doubt I'll stick around much longer.

Oh, and even though I STILL MISS vs. mid-large Evasions, now I don't even have the ability to upgrade the accuracy on my weapons anymore.

Will an enforcers x bow increase encumbrance during a battle?

I'm not much for politics or flaming threads, especially when it's Jonathan's changes to the game. For those of you complaining, this is a change that was necessary for sometime.

I LOVE THE CHANGE! While I think it may take some fine tuning, this is a HUGE step in the right direction.

/me stands and applauds.

Lord Bob, I think the aim of this is to have archers who want to use big weapons have to train heaps of HP/ST to manage those weapons. Either that or they have to dance around nekkid and shoot arrows.
I think this is an awesome left-field approach to the USD/EV problem. It may just require some tweaking.
I have a couple of Mage farm characters that are .99 encumbered now. Any single piece of their leather gear alone would make them non-tenable and they have the whole set, so while this doesn't hurt my main team too much, I am affected.

Another thing this is, is a boost to EC. Now it not only nukes ST/DX, it also has the capability to nuke DD & physical attacks too as a side effect.

Hmmm. I'm waiting to see, but I've just added people to my fightlist, dropped in PR and gained in rewards. So whatever has changed seems to be working for me!

Unless you are training ST on your mage EC will not reduce DD, but yea it is a boost to EC versus tanks.

Actually scratch that about PR; I've just gained a little. Gained rewards though... ?

Oh wow I can't believe I thought that it meant 1 handed weapons always hit, well there goes 3 Mil or so down the drain

Are you sure Rubberduck ? What does Jon say ?
Does a mage with 1M HP and -1M ST have the same encumbrance allowance as one with 1M HP and 20 ST ?

"this is a change that was necessary for sometime."

I agree that the Encumbrance thing is a -massive- step in the right direction. Don't get me wrong on that.

But coupled with a 50% drop in Weapon Allowance? This is an attack on tanks. A 20-25% drop I can see, even support. But 50%?

My challenge bonus has dropped considerably, and if I drop any NW, I start lo lose. I still win at an acceptable rate even with the Encumbrance, but my rewards are non-existant. If I nerf myself, I don't win at all. See where I'm stuck here?

Yukk as far as I know the game treats negative ST/DX as 0 or 1. If not it is a huge boost to EC which will have to be corrected :)

"Does a mage with 1M HP and -1M ST have the same encumbrance allowance as one with 1M HP and 20 ST?"

Ooooh, interesting...

> Does a mage with 1M HP and -1M ST have the same encumbrance allowance as one with 1M HP and 20 ST

Yes. As always, negative ST is equivalent to 1 ST.

btw how do the penalties work? for each # of encumbrance 50% goes to skills and spells and 50% goes to HP ST DX?

If your encumbrance is nonzero, all the stats I mentioned are penalized by that amount.

So if you have 1000 ST and 20% encumbrance your effective ST is 800.

how does this work for familiars?

RoS seems to affect encumbrance since it increase our minions ED. Should that be the case?

maybe have everyone start over?

just a suggestion

> RoS seems to affect encumbrance since it increase our minions ED. Should that be the case?

yes

> how does this work for familiars?

familiars will never be directly encumbered, obviously

Ummm...

So I log on, and I look at my character and see this:
NW: 147,636,616
Encumbered at: 132,075,096

I think "no problem, I can strip down 15 mil NW." I unequip 5 pieces of armor, and end up with this:
NW: 124,504,197
Encumbered at: 107,292,434

And my PR still 500k higher than it was yesterday when I was fully equipped.

The items in particular that I unequipped were stat-boosting, so I assume that since my effective post-boost stat levels dropped, that's what dropped my Encumbrance allowance as well. Is this intended? Because that heavily shifts the way that armor NW and uppage needs to be taken into consideration when equipping, further than PR weight.

I feel sorry for nov, with his 47 mil gloves. They don't even boost stats, they just non-negate them. Then again, he doesn't have to equip any weapons.

> I assume that since my effective post-boost stat levels dropped, that's what dropped my Encumbrance allowance as well. Is this intended?

yes

I think I'm safe, my Junction minion is severely encumbered (and will be more when my boots come back) but the penalties don't actually apply to anything he's training...

BTW how does junction and encumbrance work?
If you junction the effect of the armor doesn't that junction the encumbrance with it?
Or do familiars that are junction ed get no penalties at all?

I read that one handed weapons cannot miss in the first round of melee. Does that mean, in the event of say, a quad hit, that my four hits will hit no matter the dex or Evasion of my enemy? Or is it only the first hit that has a guaranteed hit?

no penalties listed in my fightlog...

> I read that one handed weapons cannot miss in the first round of melee

no, they don't miss the first round entirely, but they can still miss _in_ the first round.

> BTW how does junction and encumbrance work?

encumbrance is based on NW. familiars have no nw and hence cannot be encumbered.

Ah, I get it, thanks for the answer.

Me: What a crappy change. I lobby to remove all NW restrictions and just pump PR based on affects and instead it goes the other way.

Jon: the first time a change doesn't go the way you wanted is always tough.

Every change has not gone my way for well over a year. I have not complained about the changes, only that they affected me badly. I may have whined, but I did not say the change was bad. At worst I may have argued if I thought there was a better way. Most of the changes have been good, or at least neutral.

This one is BAD. Not because it hurts my character but because it is causes the following affects:

1) High priced gear is unusable. Some gear gets REALLY expensive when you pump it up, like a Corn. With this rule you will not be able to use a high end corn. You have just destroyed the value of every high end item out there.
2) It makes low end characters unable to use high end equipment. I sincerely believe that any character should be able to benefit from a high end item without being penalized.
3) It nukes strategies relying on expensive equipment, particularly walls. Walls are an integral part of bloodlust tanks and CoC mages since they HAVE to survive long in order to do well. But they cost a heck of a lot of NW and have low stats other than HP.
4) It is not balanced in affect vs. cost. Going from a +12 corn to a +13 corn has a linear affect increase but a geometric (or is it logrithmic) cost increase. The cost for these items should be based on the +, such as the PR weight which was a good idea, not the NW. It offends my sensibilities.

<TheHatchetman> maybe no encumberence in 10/20?

A very good idea, Jon.

I'm using +11 corns... they seem to be working fine

the concept seems solid to me, as much as I hate to see items become balanced... it NEEDS to happen

Perhaps we could have no encumberence in the 10/20 refresh. This would allow newer players and those starting over to get started. I also feel that encumberence on top of all the other game dynamics is a lot to digest within the first couple days. This will at least give them the same chance they had at early success before, and some extra time to learn the extra material :P Idk, just a thought

> This would allow newer players and those starting over to get started

It's a non-issue for new players. I strongly doubt anyone has an encumbrance over 0.2 without using USD.

This is the most interesting change I have ever seen here.

I have a lot of questions regarding it though.

Since GS affects encumbrance, does haste affect it as well, just at 25% efficiency?

Do changes made to stats mid-fight affect encumbrance as well? Like AoL increasing str by a certain %, or an exbow or axbow draining str or dex.

Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 0 / 6 / 0

Vs FTW on my tank who is UNENCUMBERED.

Quite the evasion BUFF, not nerf.

Yea NW!!!!

Jonathan,
Check this character:
Reda Ruu a simple mage with leather gear. Encumbrance=.99.
Any single item on that character would totally nuke it and yet they were all bought from the shop for very reasonable prices.

Add to the reasons:
5) Characters belonging to people that are not active at the moment will be fodder. Their PR will soar and their scores will plummet and it is quite possible they will lose their character and all their equipment.
6) Some equipment can no longer be used by characters until they reach a certain MPR such as the AoI. Even a pair of lousy +8 leather boots will toast a new character.
7) Characters will make far more cash than they can spend on their minions. What will that do to the economy?

doom and gloom!

At my level it's a non issue. I lost one from my fight list and gained one of equal or lesser value.

I'm dying to see what Freed has to say.... <chortle>

Ok. Jon I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but I think the evasion ranged bonus went from normal to 3x what it used to be instead of 1/3. I am now not hitting people I used to hit in ranged and their evasion is the same and my encumberance is 0. Not sure if anyone else has posted this and if so I'm sorry, but if not I think something might be wrong.

OK, I'm being thick. ;)

After a fight (with no EC) my post fight encumbrance for my two minions shows as 0.86 and 0.66.

Am I encuumbred and taking penalties? Or am I under by encumbrance limit?

Ah... I see.

My non changeable AoI is 1.4 Mill NW, and my characters Encumberance is 600K.

Hmmm... That makes some items (like the AoI) totally unusable for smaller characters. Kinda sucky really.

Unless you're a Tank.

nd a single minion Tank at that. ;)

Hmmm... Maybe this is a nice single minion boost, over multi minion teams.

Must think and tinker with this some more! ;)

Yeah, I'm not hitting anyone I wasn't before the change even with the Evasion "nerf." And considering I have NO WAY to increase my PTH without incurring two distinct penalties, I fail to see how this was an effective fix to the overpowered Evasion problem.

If it's merely a bug, then so be it. I'll wait to see how it plays out.

Jon, can Encumbrance be changed to reflect all stats equally, or Item PR wieghts changed?

At the moment, non Tanks are hit twice.

First by a low encumbrance score for not training STR (and sometimes not training natural HP). And secondly from Enchanter/Mage items having a far higher PR weight (sometimes 5 times more) than thier Tank counterparts.

If encummbrance is generally expected to be lower for Enchanters/Mages, I don't think it's also fair to charge them the most PR weight towards it from thier items...

GL mages don't need generally use weapons so that is a large advantage in the nw stakes, also DX doesn't count towards encumbrance allowance, DD does.

Amulets, NS/AG and EB/DB all do. On multi minion teams, it's hurts with the new Encumbrance, and I'm only using a two minion RBF team!

While Dex doesn't count, DD only counts for 25%, so Mages will never have as high an Encumbrance as Tanks, while having items that add up to 5 time more...

But I suppose then this is fuel for the no NW Mage arguement.

Besides, the STR/DEX/PTH from a ToA doesn't add to Encumbrance. I wonder if the STR it grants is like GS, and increases your Encumbrance?

ToA granted ST does increase nw allowed before encumbrance. I didn't think PR weight had anything to do with it, thought it was done on plain nw.

Yes, ToA adds to encumbrance, but so do EB and AG and CoI. Lots of mage items add to your encumbrance so that you can equip more.

> First by a low encumbrance score for not training STR (and sometimes not training natural HP).

that's the idea. mages don't need weapons so they get encumbered more easily. remember, there is no "weapon allowance" for encumbrance.

> And secondly from Enchanter/Mage items having a far higher PR weight (sometimes 5 times more) than thier Tank counterparts.

nope, there is no pr weight in encumbrance. straight nw.

There seem to be a bug with evasion right now i dodge every single attack again my eva minion and i am taking to some ppl that they can make a single hit vs evasion minion.Jonanthan can you check if you have not bost evasion by 66%.

OK, here is an example of wht I'm trying to explain.

Tulka's Guantlets have a 0.15 PR weight, and add 1% STR per plus. Each plus gives 1% ( I assume from the OP that STR is a 100% conversion to Encumbrance) increase to your Encumbrance.

Alatar's Gloves have a 0.5 PR weight and add 1% DD per plus. Each plus gives a 0.25% increase to your Encumbrance.

Off the top of my head I don't know what the upgrade costs for both are, but the AG increases your NW by 3.33 times *more* than the TG does, while giving you 1/4 of the Encumbrance increase...

"nope, there is no pr weight in encumbrance. straight nw."

Sweet! Ignore my post above everyone. ;)

Last point of contention about this (which I'm actualy starting to love as the multi minion 'nerf') are items like the AoI (Is this the only fixed non changeable item?)

You can't dis it down to a useable size, it's totally locked out from being useful for your team, until you get large enough to not be encumbered by it;s 1.4 Mil NW.

Joy, now i can't even hit some of these evasion minions.
Thanks

The consensus in carnage seems to be that the evasion bonus has been increased not decreased.

21-30 rounds of whiffing nice.

Anyone want to buy an elb?

the blacksmith does...

Mageblender here we come :)

My PR is insane and I can't even hit the top Evasion guys, and I have over 5 mil Dex.
You know, at least if I could hit them, I would say maybe it's worth it.

doubt you have over 5M DX after encumbrance, time to choose between the boots, bow and MH... Evasion does seem to be bust though so we await further developments. Is your encumbrance 1?

No the highest I have seen my Encumbrance is .5, most of the time it's .26 or less.

and Dx straight from the Battle Logs:

5,059,879

Wow only .26 sans EC. Maybe it won't be mage blender after all.

if you are getting a .26 encumbrance then that dex is actually quite a lot less than 5 mil. Its more like 3.7 mil.

So evasion takes a penalty if the minion is encumbered... and it's a skill... are we 100% sure other skills don't get the same treatment?

The DX etc penalties don't seem to show in the battle logs, maybe they are not even being applied.

Actually, if you're getting a 0.26 Encumbrance on that Dex, it's 'real' amount is 1,315,569 isn't it?

higher is worse GL...

Ah lol! Maybe I'll get the hang of this change soon. ;)

All that nw nerfed overnight, I feel sorry for those tanks now :(

Anyway to lift the encumbrance for tanks? Maybe weigh the factor ST a bit more? like 33% more then now?

vs the only EC team (the Lega) I have a .26, I took off the MH, and have a 0.00 encumbrance.

any possibility that you would change encumbrance to 1 number for the whole team instead of 4 numbers for each?

Do exbows affect Encumbrance?

I'd like that :)

negative str doesn't seem too... that answers some of your question

It's more like, if I can I reduce the Encumbrance of tanks mid battle, as I drain str?

I mean GS works on Encumbrance...

LOL you mean everyone gets weaker as the battle progresses? (encrumbrance is also based on the amount of HP you have)

wow that's an incredible point lostling...

1 more point to bring up...
is DM buffed now? considering that AS(HP) and GS(Str)

"(AS does not count as HP and does not affect it.)"

but the xp you invested in AS does count.

i thought that xp invested will be reduce if you reduced the effect... either way familiar builds now suck =x

actually familiars are the only mages safe from this...

well what about familiar + AS enchanters +GA + AMF?

I can verify that DM doesn't effect it...

since it is said that DM doesnt affect AS... due to HP not affecting but does DM affect GS?

"since it is said that DM doesnt affect AS... due to HP not affecting but does DM affect GS?"

Are you still talking about GS on familiars? If so, I don't see any difference than before this change.

If you are talking about DM on GS in general, then yeah, it ill hurt more than before since losing the GS gained str will be gone..

which could increase the encumbrance penalty*.

actually in general :)

speaking of GS, how will this be calculated?

will the xp spent on GS spell be added in addition to the increase STR that it provides to encumbrance calculations?

So why does GS affect it but AS doesnt? Or am i missing something? AS isn't real HP, but GS is real STR?

same question as me lol

Now that this has settled in for a day, I think it's time to ask the question only a very few people care about......

What about UC?

Obviously UC gets hit extremely hard because a UC minion cannot train ST very much at all. How is a UC minion supposed to adapt to this change? I know UC can tend to become the forgotten stepchild that doesn't really fit in (remember when weapon 'x' changed?) So, I'm open to suggestions on how to address it (other than the obvious "Give up on UC already"... I'm trying to go down with the ship :) :) )

Suggestion -- factor out NW due to ammo.

Reasoning -- It is customary for people to have large ammo stacks for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that ammo is used on defence. For instance, I have several hundred thousand wrapped up in ammo, and unequipping it reduces my encumbrance. However, ranged weapons are useless without ammo.

Now, of course, this means you could have giant upgraded ammo with no encumbrance. Fair enough. Only count a single piece of ammo's NW -- 1 bolt, arrow, or bomb omb.

"Obviously UC gets hit extremely hard"

UC don't need a melee weapon, which saves encumbrance room. They also have a large investment in UC skill, which adds some encumbrance room as well. UC might even have an advantage over other tanks in that they can pump up their "weapon" without worrying about encumbrance or weapon allowance.

So I don't think UC is hit as hard as you think.

UC is useless without a big ranged weapon. I imagine that I can reduce my encumbrance if I train a bunch to account for the weapon. I honestly never considered my Exbow all that big (100m?)

Maybe UC could get a by in the encumbrance calculation (ie, not be 25% of what it could be if it was ST). Maybe split the difference? A normal tank would take that extra XP and put it into HP/ST/DX/Skill. So maybe allocate it based on that? Dunno, just ideas.

new players now start with "encumbered at" 100000

DD is coming in at 25% NS... if that doesn't get a boost neither should UC...

i think NS is saying that UC requires a range weapon... but yep... UC has always needed a boost

Jon, how about the Exbow? Can Encumbrance change mid battle?

> Can Encumbrance change mid battle?

no, that would be a little too harsh.

"encumbrance is based on NW. familiars have no nw and hence cannot be encumbered."

Via junction one can add a tremendous amount of effective NW and stat boost, so how do junctioned familiars have no NW again?

quit being catty Glory...

Familiars are unable to train skills and are penalized in an endless heap of ways. The minions holding the familiars are already capable of being encumbered (and because of the likelyhood of them training HP are highly likely to be) and to cripple familiars (who have no ability to train anymore HP than they already do) by allowing encumbrance would be the death knell.

This was a huge boost to UC already..

This is just going to end up fodder but I'm posting it anyway.

remove the 40 mil for the last two points of my (stupidly) large NSC which are now a boat anchor for most mages and I'm still at 120 mil. with a bit above a mil HP and 4.6 mil DD my familiar would be crippled and unable to use dbs. I'd be the exact same pincushion I was yesterday.

Luckily for you the familiar is unaffected, but your EC and prot take a hit from the encumbrance.

So does the Junction.

actually never mind about that. Unless you are relying on the ac of that minion (not the familiar) go ahead and encumber him 1.00. Nothing will happen.

"you take a linear penalty to evasion, DX, ST, AC, and DD damage"

it has no affect to enchantments and skills other than evasion

My point was that familiars being subject to enc would completely destroy them... they already can't train HP and eva... so without high NW db they are just a sitting duck.

The Junction minion is not taking any penalty at this point.

Oh, i agree with you on that point completely. Familiars are tats and they shouldn't be subjected to the encumbrance, none of the other tats are.

LOL imagine TOA being subjected to encrum lol lol lol lol... yes i hate spell check

(base decay trained on Junction minion with .86 encumbrance score)
Gordon Gano's Decay hit Frustration for no damage
(this is against a no AMF team... talk about penalties)

Great change - jon - much better than the alternatives I was expecting. I can now fund my NCB by reducing some of my gear

I'm guessing that it's a negative sum gain (as opposed to a highly reduced yet positive sum gain) if you are over your encumbrance and you boost gear to try to offset the encumbrance but "overpowering" it with even more NW. This is a fair assumption, right? Once you are over your encumbrance, there's no way to increase your stats (even marginally) with more NW?

Cehsep Tentyb Zadba Des EXP 4,647 4,647 4,653 Encumbrance 0.00 0.04 0.00 HP 77,825 224,328 20 ST -449,886 -301,181 -449,886 DX -449,886 -304,751 -449,886 AC 0 40 0 Damage Inflicted 0 / 274,192 207 21,266 Ammo remaining 670 4,186 For an encumbrance of 0.04 my physical damage drops to 0.001 of average value. Cehsep Tentyb Zadba Des EXP 4,819 4,819 4,825 Encumbrance 0.00 0.00 0.00 HP 265,421 28,318 -13,623 ST 20 136,067 20 DX 20 132,347 20 AC 0 41 0 Damage Inflicted 0 / 530,358 1,019,869 / 117,629 0 / 12 Ammo remaining 670 4,172 Without encumbrance it goes as high as 5 times the actual value. Somewhat unfair, isn't it?

Sorry I am not really good with HTML

I take it then dexterity is the only thing that does not help ENC values?

I wonder why dexterity is not counted towards the allowance... Maybe it should, that way, tanks will be more viable.

and ec will be so much more powerful

> I wonder why dexterity is not counted towards the allowance

primarily because then I would weight DX and ST both at 0.5 instead of ST at 1, and EC would be that much more powerful.

"I take it then dexterity is the only thing that does not help ENC values? "

For some reason, I forgot about enchantments, which are indeed spells. The way I read this, enchanters should have no penalties due to high ENC. Said another way, ENC harms nothing that an enchanter uses.

That can be useful.

Well, forgotten about EC... Guess that is the fair for now...

Yes,
EC is quite powerful now.

For instance my wall has a 415 AC. His ENC is 0.00.

When I fight The Lega with its 3.4M EC, it nerfs my wall strength and makes my ENC about .25. Therefore my AC vs him is only 316.

Nice boost to EC.

Nice changes overall.

However, if my wall just had all HP instead of HP/STR, EC would not do much.

But imagine a tank who is barely at the ENC 0.00 level.

Some nice sized EC can nerf his str/dex/AC all in 1 swoop.

So the new deadly combination against tanks will be evasion plus EC... Nice!

Having EC reduce AC is really kind of...... weird?

Maybe the effect of EC shouldn't affect the encumbrance. Does dispel magic have the same effect when it dispels ED?

Same question with AMF vs DD. Since AMF doesn't reduce DD, but merely blocks it and reflects it, I would guess that AMF does NOT affect ENC.

> I would guess that AMF does NOT affect ENC.

right

"However, if my wall just had all HP instead of HP/STR, EC would not do much.

But imagine a tank who is barely at the ENC 0.00 level.

Some nice sized EC can nerf his str/dex/AC all in 1 swoop."


This was my concern, and ya left out HP... EC lowers ST and DX, then HP, more ST, more DX, and AC...

So EC just became the most powerful spell by a longshot. First you kill the ST, then you destroy the character with ENC.

No, not the most powerful.

But certainly much more useful then before.

Before you had 2 main features of EC:

1) Nerf the dex and hope for less dex based hits.
2) Nerf the str and they do no damage.

We all knew that with a minimal amount of strength, any hit will do a lot of damage.

Now, EC is quite a valuable spell. Since even if you do not nerf their entire strength, you can lower their AC/evasion/str and dex by lowering their ENC.

Quite a nice boost to EC, but not uberpowerful.

So,

Since evasion is subject to ENC load, is the minus PTH from DB's subject to the same reduction?

i would say that the recent changes put it on par with dm as one of the most powerful spells in the game. dm got its own tat to counter it, i wonder if we will see a new supporter tat for ec as well.

> i wonder if we will see a new supporter tat for ec as well.

no.

already have that tat its the ToA

excellent point!

I can vouch for that.

When I was 2 large EC's, Freed with his TOA overwhelmed my ability to nerf his strength.

He could have done even more if he used a HoE and TG if he wanted.

<Ranger> EC is not a very good spell
<Ranger> sry NOW a very good...
<BluBBen> it really is
<Lamuness> ;p @ Ranger
<BluBBen> I wold acctualy go as far as saying it's a little overpowered.
<JS> little.
<Ranger> little? 8M str in 1 hit for 1 damag?
<JS> He's talking about EC
<Lamuness> yes, it's fine.
<BluBBen> talking EC
<novice> considering ranger was able to cut his trained level in half I think that's fair
<BluBBen> xbow is pretty much overpowered, but we would only need to make the damage done fit into the ST draning equation and all would be solved
<novice> I honestly don't think EC should effect enc
<Lamuness> not overpowered at all.
<JS> neither do I
<TheHatchetman> nor do I
<BluBBen> not me either

Very true, EC is quite nice indeed.

However, anyone can train it, without regard to USD or CB2.

I like it so much I have a high level trained one. Anyone can, appropriate to their MPR of course.

I think it should reduce encumbrance, because of the boostable nature of str

We need to see to the game balance and not to what is realistic.

with encumbrance available i think you would be able to fairly add double weapons.. now... so i could equip two one handed weapons... and since you have encumbrance it could make the NW of each weapon need to be lower but allow for double hits this way... just my 2 cents... but i have brought it up in CB1 and was told no never will happen, but still though i would bring it up...

VB + BoTh = OP... Sorry Pope