NightStrike and his Response. (in General)

1) What keeps you coming back to CB? And, how can we encourage others to play and stay? Provide an example for the latter question.

I'm going to answer this as a reply to my previous answers... it seems fitting to see how things have progressed since I last commented on my feelings towards CB. The last time I was nominated, it was while I was banned from the community, so my thoughts on the matter were heavily skewed. This is the "forced hiatus" that I mention:



*----
That's a very ironic question considering the timing and placement -- it's the first question, and it's after a bit of a forced hiatus. In no particular order, I can say that it's mostly because of miandrital, oddbird, sefton, opvines, sutekh, gentlemanloser, johnnywas, novice, ranger, shade, etc etc.
*----



In actuality, I had eveyr intention of giving up and leaving after Jon banned me. Most would do the same, as it leaves quite a foul taste given how I was treated. However, after several people nominated me and several more asked me to stay, I realized the same thing that sefton realized when he withdrew his desire to quit. That is:



*----
See, the game has nothing to do with it. There's tons of games out there, all with varying levels of entertainment. Even strictly text games are much more expansive -- I could load up an old version of LORD with 81 IGMs (that's for all of you old BBSers out there..... all 2 of you) and be thoroughly engrossed for a long time.. But playing LORD by yourself is rather disturbing.

The allure of an online game involving real people is that the time that you are investing is worth something. What's the real reason people get so upset over a breakup from a long relationship? It's the realization that you just wasted the past X years of your life pouring time and energy into something that fell flat, like a bad investment. Computer games are similar in that they provide temporary entertainment, but no lasting substance. When all is said and done, you've spent time into a bit of a black hole.

With an online game, the community aspect opens a door into a world where you can enjoy the entertainment factor while building something that has meaning and will last even beyond when you tire of the game itself. Understanding that is the key to creating an environment that encourages newcomers.
*----


To expand on that, and to possibly say this all more succinctly -- Jon banned me. Everyone else did not. At least, I hope. As long as there is at least one person that wants me around, then I'll stick to it, despite any ill will from the powers that be around here. So you ask what keeps me coming back? It's the people that actually want me around. I go where I am wanted, where I can serve a purpose, where I can be useful. It is the basis for my business in real life, and my life in general.



A great man told me numerous times -- when you die, there's two dates and a dash. The magnitude of your dash is not based on money, fame, or power. It's based solely on the number of people who are better off because you lived. If someone is better off because I stuck around a little longer after receiving said treatment, then that's good enough for me.


=====================


Regarding the second half of this question, I have to say that I think one thing improved -- the negativity that Jon usually exudes has subsided considerably. That has had a trickle-down effect that has, as a whole, bettered the environment here. Granted, there have been recent events of nonsense, but I didn't say that things are perfect. I said they're better. It's a step in the right direction.



*----
Given that creating the welcoming, enriching environment of a community is the answer to getting the average weekly user count to increase, I have previously come up with several examples of how best to cultivate a user community. I have in the past used the example of a bar or usual hangout, but the basic idea is that when a new person arrives, he must feel accepted within a very short time. Typical things to avoid include trashing some new player's ideas, giving orders with no advice and no reasoning ("Go single fireball mage" was a long standing tradition), and my own personal pet peeve, being administration nazis. When people feel like they have to walk on eggshells, when people withold participation out of fear of some "punishment", there's a definite error in judgement.



Things to keep doing include everything that people like GentlemanLoser, Johnnywas, Oddbird, et. al. do -- be *friendly*. There is a very prevalent atmosphere of basic unfriendliness and animosity present here. That is a pure detriment to building a community. Examples of how to act come down from leadership and are expounded upon by the community. For instance, a Frequently Offered Retarded Suggestion (FORS) list is a prime instance of setting a tone such that derogatory mockery is encouraged. It may be humorous, but there is a cost for that humour.
*----



I have to say that I think the overall negativity has dropped. It hasn't dropped a lot. But it's gone down. It's a shame that the LER can't document negativity levels :) So what does this mean? Basically, move on to the next issue regarding new players. Phase 2, if you will. This came up today in chat, actually -- the handling of new player mentorship. I'm not going to rehash all of my ideas about how to make mentoring better, because I'm not a mentor. I do plenty of mentoring in the offline world; I can relax a little online :) What we can do, however, to extend the idea of new player encouragement, is to have a new player forum. Create an area where people can ask "stupid" questions and say "stupid" things and not have to worry about being tarred and feathered, or have to deal with a mentor who won't or can't respond to any questions. Create a forum that acts as an incubator Keep everything civil, keep it positive, keep it encouraging. Heck, fine people that post in the forum that aren't tolerant. I honestly think that it will provide a much more enriching environment devoid of some of the deficiencies of a new player chat (not the least of which is CB's arbitrary determination that your time in new players chat is over). Remember, the overall idea should be "positivity", not "negativity".



Couple this with another forum geared solely for negativity. Give it a place to prosper. Off-topic doesn't work, as it's more of a place whose purpose is to collect all of the nonsense. People really need to vent publicly sometimes, and they should be allowed to (especially when it is in defense towards another defamation). Do it in the proper place, and keep it out of the normal string of things. We've all had our rough-and-tumbles. You can't get rid of it entirely, but you can control it. On that note, it may be wise to make this place an area where anything really does go. And if you can't handle it, turn the forum off in your user settings. In fact, default it to off.



Anyway, I'm getting off topic, so I'll close with this -- first impressions have nothing to do with what you say. People never remember the things you tell them when you first meet. They remember how you made them feel.

I wanted to talk about this response. He says... quite a few things I believe very strongly in myself. Even says a few things I've voiced before, hopefully in a more... comprehendable way. Basically... thanks Nightstrike for saying this. And I hope alot of you read this and really take it in.

I'm really big on the idea of making a Newbie Forum and Debate / Fiery Pity forum.

FYI, the paragraphs between "*----" are quotes from my previous QB entry. They were cut out from the reply SNK3R posted, which may make it confusing.

I really like the continued call for "consistency" in punishments combined with the suggestion of forum where "negativity" would be punished. It demonstrates the completely lack of logic that's being applied with these complaints.

The admins are users who have lives, trying to turn them into robots incapable of thought at the same time you want them to be the judge of something so abstract as negativity is magical thinking at it's best...

Thanks for the negativity as usual, novice.

You're always welcome to some for yourself Nerevas...

novice = electron

Negative threads don't usually start off that way...

FYI, for all those reading the contest entries, please look here for my entry:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddtvks9s_11gzkbb6

I have asked SNK3R repeatedly to use the real version of my entry, complete with section quoting so that it is readable. He has outright refused to use the less confusing version, and is not responding to my chatmail or chat PM. Therefore, please ignore what is posted in the official QB thread, since it is not the entry I submitted. Please consult the above link for the only entry I stand behind.

I felt that the extra symbols were way over the top and extremely confusing. So, in order to avoid that for the "final" draft, I decided to excise them.

Why do you insist on [edyit edit] until you're blue in the face until you get exactly what you want? It's not like the lack of symbols will "make" or "break" you in the poll; the content is still there. I'm not willing to go back to re-edit the entry for your symbols alone. I think the format itself is content.

I am volunteering as an Admin. I do these QB contests for the community with no benefit to myself. I do have a life outside of CB and do the best I can here. Apparently, my best isn't good enough for you, NightStrike, yet you insist on sending me negative-tempered ChatMails, in my opinion, from your tone.

I will be happy to forfeit my "duty" as holding these QB contests if the majority of the community seems fit on having me do so. It does take quite a bit of work to actually have these done nicely and organized. However, it seems like I'm not doing what I planned out to do...

You're right that it won't make a difference in terms of me winning.. I think most people realize that it isn't possible for me to win. However, to go out of your way to remove markings that denote which paragraphs are quotes (and thus make it more clear), and then to outright refuse to fix it without any sort of explanation (short of implying that you dislike the length), and then to ignore any further chatmails from me... definitely calls into question just what the heck is going on. So if you don't want to put it back, then fine. But I'm still going to expose what I originally wrote.

Admins are allowed to curse in the forum?

Bitching is a verb, not a noun. See this thread.

I don't mind what you originally wrote. I'm just stating what happened for those whom are thinking I'm a "bad guy" because I didn't do everything you asked me to.

For the record, these are the horrible things that I said. It should be easy to tell how "blue in the face" I was:

To: SNK3R Sent: April 12 2007 5:34 PM EDT Delivered: April 12 2007 5:34 PM EDT

Without highlighting portions of my answer that were quoted (with the series of hyphens following an asterisk), my answer to question 1 reads very poorly. Can you address that?


From: SNK3R Sent: April 12 2007 9:30 PM EDT Delivered: April 12 2007 9:30 PM EDT

No, I don't feel having to reformat your extremely long response is necessary.

To: SNK3R Sent: April 12 2007 11:21 PM EDT Delivered: April 12 2007 11:21 PM EDT

23:1:32 => SNK3R your statement suggests bias due to the length of my response. The length shuld not matter. The point is that since you removed the quoting of various sections, they all run together and wind up being malformed
23:3:8 => SNK3R why are you trying to make it more confusing?
23:18:11 => SNK3R You had to actually take the time to remove the markings I put in there.. what was your reason for doing that?

I'm not sure I understand NS's "style" in regards to how he answered the questions, but that's his call, isn't it?

I mean, let's say I decided that I wanted to boldface every other word... I would want that formatting depicted accurately in my QB nomination answers.

SNK3R, this is in NO WAY a come-down on you... But can we reach a compromise here? Can you not just re cut-and-paste NS's work? If that is how he wants his thoughts/ideas presented, he has the conch -- it's his choice.

That being said, one catches more flies with honey. I don't agree with use of negative tone or harassing behavior. Then again, how else is NS supposed to get heard? He just wants his formatting (formatting IS part of the content in this case) intact...

Can the compromise just be to give NS what he wants, even if, in your opinion, you think it makes him appear confusing?

Fine, I'll re-do it when I get back from class in about 3.5 hours. And, yes, it is quite a bit of work because I have to put in all the HTML formatting. :)

Can you wait 3.5 hours, NightStrike?

Never mind the QB, we need a PITA tag for NS.

doesn't the "pre" tag work in CB? lemme test:

 1) What keeps you coming back to CB? And, how can we encourage others to play and stay? Provide an example for the latter question.

I'm going to answer this as a reply to my previous answers... it seems fitting to see how things have progressed since I last commented on my feelings towards CB.  The last time I was nominated, it was while I was banned from the community, so my thoughts on the matter were heavily skewed.  This is the "forced hiatus" that I mention:

 

*----
That's a very ironic question considering the timing and placement -- it's the first question, and it's after a bit of a forced hiatus. In no particular order, I can say that it's mostly because of miandrital, oddbird, sefton, opvines, sutekh, gentlemanloser, johnnywas, novice, ranger, shade, etc etc.
*----

 

In actuality, I had eveyr intention of giving up and leaving after Jon banned me.  Most would do the same, as it leaves quite a foul taste given how I was treated.  However, after several people nominated me and several more asked me to stay, I realized the same thing that sefton realized when he withdrew his desire to quit.  That is:

 

*----
See, the game has nothing to do with it. There's tons of games out there, all with varying levels of entertainment. Even strictly text games are much more expansive -- I could load up an old version of LORD with 81 IGMs (that's for all of you old BBSers out there..... all 2 of you) and be thoroughly engrossed for a long time.. But playing LORD by yourself is rather disturbing.

The allure of an online game involving real people is that the time that you are investing is worth something. What's the real reason people get so upset over a breakup from a long relationship? It's the realization that you just wasted the past X years of your life pouring time and energy into something that fell flat, like a bad investment. Computer games are similar in that they provide temporary entertainment, but no lasting substance. When all is said and done, you've spent time into a bit of a black hole.

With an online game, the community aspect opens a door into a world where you can enjoy the entertainment factor while building something that has meaning and will last even beyond when you tire of the game itself. Understanding that is the key to creating an environment that encourages newcomers.
*---- 

So it works. I used width="80" in the pre tag.

notice the font change...

compromise would have been NS thanking SNK3R for trying to help him out with formatting, and offering to do the markup himself if he didn't like the way it was done...

Yeah it does look a bit 'system' font-like, unfortunately the pre tag will always make text look like this. The alternative is to paste the text into a free HTML editor like NVU.

Would a simple copy-paste not have worked?

no.

novice, in case you didn't know, acronyms are not considered a way around the "PG" rule.

Just to point out an irony, NS hasn't cursed on this thread, while SNK and novice have, essentially. NS's recounting of his CM's to SNK also displays NS not really being out of line, as far as I can tell (sure he could have been "softer" I suppose, but we could all stand to be softer at times).

Waaaay back in the day, as Bebop (he was Vicious, last I heard here on CB2) and I watched the very literal carnage in CB1 chat in regards to Lady Di, etc., we tried to put our finger on what was happening -- why the petty commentary was washing up to CB's shores in such putrid fashion. We pretty much reached the same conclusion at the same time, coining the term "bandwagoning". You can call it what you like: polarization, cliques, social strata -- whatever, it is all 100% contrived, 100% unnecessary, and 100% within community control (to knock it off).

For whatever reason, NS has a mark on his back right now. I don't know why. Apparently it doesn't matter how much research you do, how much you add to the Wiki, how much you try to help others -- make a couple of questionable choices in tone, or (God forbid!) side with the wrong guy in an argument (never matter if who's right), and "bam". You are never allowed to recover.

I throw down with NS quite regularly -- you don't need to look far to see that. And for all I know, he doesn't even like me any more (and maybe never did *smile*). That's not even the point. The point is that I like NS. I know some of his weaknesses (condescension, tone, often a flat affect) and I know his strengths (analysis, willing to do the legwork, willing to push back in order to get to the crux of a matter). That's everyone here: goods and bads.

If you want, I will list the goods and bad as I see it for everyone. From the newest newbie to Jonathan himself. From someone I really like, to someone I don't care for much. I'm good at it. I am good at being non-biased and good at staying off bandwagons because _I_ _don't_ _care_. This is a game, folks. Alignments, bandwagoning, polarizations -- geesh, save that for political debates or arguing religion with your mom and dad (or whatever). It is entirely unnecessary here.

And I'll finish by saying what I have been trying to say in several posts/threads recently -- the most important question you can ask yourself before you press that "Confirm Post" button is to ask yourself, "Have I added anything to this discussion? Was this necessary? Did I say more than just 'me too' or 'I don't like so-and-so'?"

I have asked myself that question more and more lately, and I have been NOT pressing "Confirm" quite a lot. I have been getting caught up in the taking of sides and the jumping on bandwagons without even knowing it. It takes a VERY conscious effort to overcome, an effort I have not been very good at myself at times. I encourage everyone to stay conscious and to make that effort, and I know with certainty that attitudes in forums would improve.

pain in the arse never struck me as unpg...

My contention with NightStrike has always been his unyielding anti-admin stance, he takes every opportunity to create strife for people who give their time to US. We OWE THEM, not the other way around.

NS's "anti-admin" stance is your perception. You are entitled to your opinion.

However, as I said above, did your first post post add to this thread? Could you have just as easily shown your support for SNK (I assume that was the bottom line of your sentiment, yes? It was mine.) without throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

What you call "anti-admin", I call "feeling free to push back in order to get satisfaction". I value that in this community. All NS asked for was that his content be preserved. He was asked to answer questions, he did, and his answers should be displayed as such. It is our PRIVILEGE to read NS's content. He didn't nominate himself. Also, SNK should be allowed to take all the time he needs to get the content up there, since he is a busy man too, and we all appreciate his work.

Could NS throw in a few more "thank you"s? Better master the art of mild, self-deprecating tact? Sure.

So could you.

So could I.

So could we all. We could all be kinder.

NS has every right to speak distinctly and even forcefully, even to an admin. Admins are community people too. They deserve respect (no more no less), just like everyone else. I don't see anything disrespectful in NS's manner.

And yes, the "a" word is not considered acceptable here, no matter how it is spelled. If you want to debate the finer points of when people are being a PITB(ackside), feel free to CM me. *smile*

SNK, no HTML formatting is required. I sent you the document as a google doc. Being that you have a gmail account, you can access the information as html.

However, all you had to do was tell me that you needed it as HTML, and I would have sent it within a few minutes.

I already have a specific HTML layout I go by, NightStrike. Therefore, I do transpose everything given to me (and read it, by the way) into the newly formatted layout. Therefore, just sending it via HTML doesn't work.

I fixed your post to add your symbols, NightStrike. Do you want anything else changed while I'm at it?

P.S. If an Admin. decides he/she should fine me, then please go ahead and do so for my "Non-PG" (which I still don't think is, but at least another Admin. will agree). You'll just be taking the cash out of the community because I have been playing to raise money for future contests -- not for my own personal "playing" benefit.

Thank you for your help.

I've read your QB response in its original formatting, and honestly I might go so far to say that SNK3R did you a favor by removing your symbolism. Had I posted the responses, and I have in the past, I most likely would have done the same.

I'm not sure how the asterisk with dashes is designed to make it less confusing. I find myself ever more confused by their presence. Had I the intention of punctuating "quotes", I personally would have used quotation marks.

If I may, I would also like to criticize NightStrike's response itself. In truth, his responses deviates from purpose of the questions. Question 4, which is an extended version of the question I submitted, allows you to discuss, by design, what you don't like about CB and doesn't allow you to talk about who you don't like in CB. All of the questions, for good reason, avoided the subject of who you don't like. However, NightStrike goes out of his way in question 1 to blame specific people for the problems that CB has. This was, in my opinion, very poor taste.

Further, I feel that NightStrike needs to be more direct and concise. I know that I myself have a history of being long-winded, but I am always trying to cut to the case. It might even be better if you stated your final conclusion at the top of your response rather then half way in. This allows you to speak at length when supporting your case without leaving the reader guessing exactly what case you are building.

Question four said nothing about _who_ I don't like. Question four was definitely a _what_ -- stagnation occurs when attrition of newcomers meets or exceeds the strengthening of newcomers. I don't like stagnation, and I do wish I knew of a really good way to boost the user count. Maybe it'd be worthwhile to increase the referral rewards. Maybe take some of the Dawg cash and get soem advertising going. It's been a few years since I was in the market of web-vertising, and it has changed greatly.

You didn't read what I said. I know you didn't mention who you didn't like in question 4 (four) because the question specifically says not to. However, just because the other questions don't say the same thing, doesn't mean that it makes it alright to blame people for issues in other questions.

The point is that you used question 1 (one) to address who you didn't like. In all honesty there was no reason why you had to do that in that question. By answering the way you did, you violated the spirit of all the questions.

Is it not the other way around?

I'm a little confused. I was responding to this:

"Question 4, which is an extended version of the question I submitted, allows you to discuss, by design, what you don't like about CB and doesn't allow you to talk about who you don't like in CB."

I thought I followed that pretty well. Do you disagree, or is my response to question 4 ok?

I think he means that the list of people you mentioned in your answer to the first question are a list of people you don't like. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

"I think he means that the list of people you mentioned in your answer to the first question are a list of people you don't like. Please correct me if i'm wrong. "

Um.. yikes... if that's the case, then there's been a big misunderstanding. I was listing people as the reason I stay.. and again as people who are great examples of doing the right thing. Can you point me to where that didn't come across? I need to correct it immediately.

Really, I think the whole first quotation in regards to the question is worded in a way that is totally correct but can give the impression that you say your hiatus was ''caused'' by the people you mention.

This is ridiculous. Vestax, unless you are going to do a critique of all the other QB responses, you should, with all do respect, be quiet. What was the point of that? Calling out NS because YOU don't think something-or-other makes sense, or that he needs to be more concise? Good sweet jiminy-in-a-sidecar, apparently NS really DOES have a target on his back (I had said that earlier, but mainly just for dramatic effect). Please answer, why did you post, Vestax? And believe you me, you better write the answer very well, or I will most certainly be here to tell you what you have stated incorrectly.

Speaking to NS's first response, I seemed to have totally understood that he was stating the people he "liked". Believe me, since I was specifically mentioned, I made sure I understood what he was trying to say. I didn't find his intent in any way difficult to discern.

At least NS's even-keel tone has an advantage. I would have totally lost it by now if I were NS.

*due (damn I need to learn to proofread (and get some sleep (and cut back on beer))).

Please use the new thread...

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0025AR