Different idea to deal with Seekers (in General)

(Not sure if I should hijack the other thread and figured it would probably be impolite... but feel free to merge)

I have a different idea to eliminate the problems people currently have with seekers.

It is a two step process:
Step 1: Remove seekers from game
Step 2: Create new supporter item- Mage bane Crossbow

Mage bane cross bow 4x1 + 0

The new item would function similarly to axbow/exbow. It would target the character with highest trained direct damage and reduce it. It could be upgraded the same way as axbow/exbow.

I say it would function similarly because those items cue somewhat off the statistics of the shooter and most magic would preempt any physical attack, so may need a bit of tinkering.

AMF should probably stay the way it was at the beginning of the round.

e.g.
AMF at .2
Magebane hits for 40k
Caster loses concentration

AMF would still only have an effect of .2, despite the new spell level being lower

Part of the current problem with seekers is that they work on any bow/crossbow. This basically means they work with elven longbows. Thus, a character can have both really high damage potential and be able to bypass walls.

By creating the new item with only 4x it reduces the damage potential, puts it in line with axbow/exbow series, and forces characters to choose between high damage, and targeted damage.

Being hit by a high level magebane crossbow (feel free to pick a new name) would be devastating to mage characters, but being hit by a high level exbow causes similar problems for tanks, so it is a fair disadvantage.

Any thoughts/suggestions appreciated.

Yeah, not quite.
Your last statement ".. being hit by a high level exbow causes similar problems for tanks, so it is a fair disadvantage" is the main target of my counter-point, and that is:

Mages can't use exbows.

The whole thing about the seeker argument is that no mage spell directly targets the "biggest dx trainer of the opponent".

So, tanks have a way of bypassing walls and killing mages, but mages don't have a way of bypassing walls to kill tanks.

You might say "What about fireball?" to which I say "What about SoD + exp shot?". Then you might say "What about CoC?" to which we all roll around on the floor laughing for a while.

And, you can't just make MM hit the highest DX trained opponent, because MM doesn't cast any money to cost, whereas seekers are _quite_ expensive.

-------------------

Now, the rest of your argument becomes moot, because only tanks would be able to use this Magebane Crossbow of yours, so the problem remains.

So, it's a difficult problem without any truly easy answer, in my opinion.

Cheers,
muon.

I think you missed the point. I am not trying to give mages a response to seekers. I am trying to find a way to eliminate the problem of seekers + elb = massive targeted damage.

Frankly, magic has an advantage in that it always hits, is only 1 statistic, and does not require money to upgrade (hit and damage - coi/ags are optional, a +0 weapon is useless). I did not want to give mages a way to better seek out tanks. The fact mages cannot use an exbow is immaterial to the problem I am addressing.

So, that being said, are they any problems you see that a mage seeking x-bow would pose that would make it unbalanced when compared to tank seeking exbow?

Well the only problem that I see with this is that it will make it where every mage will have to have a high level of evasion on it. Also, for me, when I fight some people that use ex/axbow with seekers they are able to kill my mage within a couple of rounds.

There is that problem- requiring evasion/db, but the same problem exists with seekers and elbs and tanks facing exbows. This way phantom link may be able to take care of part of the draining. You are right though, it is a potential issue.

Dude, do you even know how powerful the current axbow/exbow are ? They have potential to actually turn 1 mil of dex to -ve in a single round and NW is just 50mil or so. So single minion tanks will be king, because they will always be better than multi minion tanks and no other mages can stop them after round 2 or 3 (normally a team will have only 2 DD minions at most)

I like Bariagan's idea.

The question every mage lover really has to ask himself or herself is...

Which do you prefer: The ELB/Seekers combo or Bariagan's anti-mage crossbow?

If I were a mage lover, I would much prefer to face bolts fired from Baragan's crossbow than a seeker fire from an ELB.

But that is just my humble opinion.

See, for me this is an interesting one, now that I see the main gist of Bariagan's idea. The idea is to swap a high cost ammunition (seekers) for a low cost ammunition (arrows) with a hit to damage whilst retaining the main trait of the seeker - mage seeking.

I'm not sure how this is much different to reducing the damage of seekers down to a base of 5 and dropping their price to that of arrows, and this has been discussed elsewhere.

Personally, I don't like the idea, but then that's just a first impression due to the fact that I'm a mage and this broadens the options for tanks whilst giving nothing to mages :-/ But, for the entire community of CB as a whole, who knows - perhaps it is advantageous.

Cheers,
muon.

Here is the main reason why I think it is a good idea...

Right now, a tank using an ELB with seekers is effective against both mages and high AC walls and tanks. A crossbow on the other hand, is not as effective against high AC tanks and walls. It just doesn't deal enough damage unless you invest a lot of gold into it.

This would mean that a lot of single minion tanks would have to revise their strategies because they would become more one-dimensional.

In other words, removing seeker ammo and replacing it with Bariagan's crossbow would, in my opinion, cause the number of ELB wielding single minion ToA archers to decrease over time. And that is a good thing.

I myself don't think it is a good idea. Tanks already have plenty of ways of reducing mage damage. They have spells and items for it. Just my opinion though.

Why get rid of seekers? Why not just change them until they're not able to kill any mage, tank, or wall that they want? You could:

a) reduce base damage, say something like 2. You'd still get good damage against mages, but not overpowering amounts.

b) change the seeking ability. Have them only fire after the equipped minion is hit by a DD spell, and at the minion that hit them. No ranged DD on the other team? Too bad, seekers are a specific anti-mage weapon, and you should have a few drawbacks to being so specific with your team.

c) find a way to change them so on defense they only work as regular arrows, to avoid having people pump cash into some and just leaving their team unbeatable by mages.

b) change the seeking ability. Have them only fire after the equipped minion is hit by a DD spell, and at the minion that hit them. No ranged DD on the other team? Too bad, seekers are a specific anti-mage weapon, and you should have a few drawbacks to being so specific with your team.

I really like this idea. For some reason I can see a tank looking across the field of battle with his poor eyesight and not being able to see who the mage is until he gets something cast his way. :O)

I like that idea too. It would also give CoC and Decay mages a break.

I think seekers are fine, the problem is when theyre used for defensive ammo. So just re-instate the cool-down period for ammo so they cant be used for defensive ammo

Just make them weaker then normal arrows. Then there is a real decision to make.

Hehe ... I think the current mage strat is doing fine. The cost of seekers is getting prohibitive for all but the very desperate ;)

wow, seekers really are expensive Lol

yeah but now there is more than one player involved. To be honest I find it amusing.

You're not the only one... ;)

...and make it that, when attacked as well as attacking, you use your arrows, win or lose.

Well the problem with that is I can pay some nub to use a 4 minion character to fight a target I want to kill. The character might only have 10 MPR so a decent archer should lose around 12 arrows per fight. 160 BA equals to 1920 arrows lost to someone that never had any chance of beating him. Do that a couple of times while said target is offline and then farm him silly when his arrows run out.

Good idea? I think not.

Shelingar, that is not entirely true. I recently tested this and the only time that the opponent ever loses arrows is if they won on and they gained exp from the battle. Even when I attack people at my level that use seekers and lose they sometimes do not lose any arrows.

You only lose arrows if you wouldn't have won the fight without them currently. What is being suggested is that any fight you fire an arrow, it's gone, something that would end rare defensive ammo use completely. In my mind th eonly point of seekers is to allow a tank team the option of not having to have AMF, which is a good thing.

Yes I understand that Karn, but I was commenting on the following:

"...and make it that, when attacked as well as attacking, you use your arrows, win or lose. "

A blanket rule like this would not be beneficial.