Can someone please explain to me.....? (in General)
QBRanger
July 19 2006 12:08 AM EDT
Why in battles sometimes my PL minion has exactly 0 hp left and other times has only 1 hp left?
Can a minion die via PL absorption only? And why does it die sometimes and not others?
Thanks in advance.
The 0/1 thing is due to damage reduction (10 points of damage remove 9 hitpoints via PL). Rounding errors make stuff look weird.
Yes, you can die from PL damage only.
For your third question, I don't know. Can you be more specific?
This might be the confusing activity of PL:
"PL will not absorb any damage if it is unable to absorb enough to keep the original target alive."
Is that what you are seeing? If absorbing the damage is pointless, it won't. The dying minion will just suck up all the damage it can.
QBRanger
July 19 2006 12:22 AM EDT
My PL minion behind my wall dies at exactly 0 HP while my wall still lives on to continue its chosen job.
QBsutekh137
July 19 2006 12:32 AM EDT
This phenomenon is clearly meant to give Todd an advantage.
sssimmo
July 19 2006 12:36 AM EDT
Correction: an "unfair" advantage.
Someone get us Todd, a BoNE, A TSA MgS rear wall and $300 million cb stat, we need a stable top 5!
bartjan
July 19 2006 1:50 AM EDT
A PL minion can die in 2 ways:
- The regular, old fashioned way: he gets directly hit (either because of FB/CoC, or because someone accidentally put the PL minion in front). You'll see this as a negative amount of HP on the minion.
- Because he has not enough HP to absorb the entire amount of damage he was asked to. If a PL minion only has 20k HP left and the incoming blow is 100k, then it will only absorb 20k. The remaining damage (which I assume here is 70k) goes to the original minion I think. You'll see this as 0HP left on the minion.
I'm betting the battles that leave him with 1 HP are due to decay.
{Quitter}Gah
July 19 2006 2:10 AM EDT
20k + 70k =/= 100k
;) I'm picky.
bartjan
July 19 2006 2:24 AM EDT
Gah: please (re-?)read PL's description, for example in the Help.
If you're hit with 100k and you have 20k left, you can absorb 22,222.2222 points of damage, which will leave you with 0.7777 points. This rounds up to 1, I believe.
{Quitter}Gah
July 19 2006 2:53 AM EDT
fine, heh forgot to factor that in
22k+70k =/= 100k
Anyways, pretty sure Nightstrike has it right, at least thats how I thought it worked. Just has to do with the rounding.. but that 1 hp changes a lot in battles and it's pretty random...
bartjan
July 19 2006 3:00 AM EDT
"PL will not absorb any damage if it is unable to absorb enough to keep the original target alive."
I assumed the original target had more than enough HP, and that it was the PL minion who's close to dying.
With the original minion having more than enough HP, wouldn't the PL minion at least attempt to absorb 90k?
I get the 0/1 thing as well. It's not due to decay. :)
{Quitter}Gah
July 19 2006 3:16 AM EDT
I'm pretty sure a PL minion can't absorb more damage than it has hp. Thus causing the problem.
The PL minion having only 20k HP left, and being tasked to absorb 100k, will only absorb 20k HP's worth (which is about 22.2k and change). Then, he dies. The rest of the damage (Gah, for you, that's 77,777.77777777777 points, or 77,7778) goes to the original minion.
I have no idea of the origin of the 90k number you mention.
bartjan
July 19 2006 3:45 AM EDT
can't absorb: yes.
Can't attempt to absorb: dunno, I don't recall that mentioned in the changelogs.
Right, here's an exmaple of fight where this happens to me.
Awen has 31154 (AS) + 9000 HP.
Awen's Fireball hit Catfish Keith's familiar [3125], Catfish Keith [2777]
Talhearn's Magic missile hit Catfish Keith [15362]
Catfish Keith's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (1169)!
Catfish Keith's familiar's Magic missile hit Talhearn [6431]
Awen absorbs damage [6431]
Catfish Keith takes damage from his own Fireball (2054)!
Catfish Keith's Fireball hit Dutigirn [4826], Awen [5362], Talhearn [4812]
Awen absorbs damage [4826]
Awen absorbs damage [4812]
Awen's Fireball hit Catfish Keith's familiar [6620], Catfish Keith [3981]
Talhearn's Magic missile hit Catfish Keith [11453]
Catfish Keith's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (1336)!
Catfish Keith's familiar's Magic missile hit Talhearn [5997]
Awen absorbs damage [5997]
Catfish Keith takes damage from his own Fireball (2348)!
Catfish Keith's Fireball hit Dutigirn [6236], Awen [7038], Talhearn [5599]
Awen absorbs damage [6236]
Awen absorbs damage [2508]
Awen's Fireball hit Catfish Keith's familiar [6386], Catfish Keith [6112]
Talhearn's Magic missile hit Catfish Keith [13809]
R.I.P. Awen
Catfish Keith's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (1503)!
Catfish Keith's familiar's Magic missile hit Talhearn [9311]
Awen absorbs damage [24]
Catfish Keith takes damage from his own Fireball (2641)!
Catfish Keith's Fireball hit Dutigirn [8295], Talhearn [4226]
R.I.P. Catfish Keith's familiar, Catfish Keith
As Catfish Keiths FB didn't hit Awen in the last round, the last "absorbs damage [24]" must have killed her.
I think it's a rounding issue. I'm sure PL won't try to absorb if the blow would outright kill the original target, but PL should only absorb enough damage to take the PL minion to 1HP.
I should probably see how much damage Awen took in the whole fight. ;)
QBRanger
July 19 2006 6:40 AM EDT
"I think it's a rounding issue. I'm sure PL won't try to absorb if the blow would outright kill the original target, but PL should only absorb enough damage to take the PL minion to 1HP."
I thought I read in some previous post that PL was not designed to kill the minion with the skill by absorption alone.
However I can be getting old and have a bad memory.
I agree with GL in that I think there is a rounding issue involved.
Perhaps Jon can chime in.
I have a PL question (and it's only a minor topic detour) - has anyone figured out a "best effective" ratio of PL effect level to HP on the PL minion, or are we finding that it differs from situation to situation?
bartjan
July 19 2006 7:22 AM EDT
PL is optimal when it's slightly larger than the hits you receive. The optimal PL:HP ratio is 1:∞ ;)
Yup. :) Get enough PL to fully absorb the blows that hit you, and after that, as much HP as you can get! :P
QBRanger
July 19 2006 9:35 AM EDT
From a recent battle:
Gwim Weaper tapped Prophecies with A Q-Tip [103506]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [4128]
Gwim Weaper draws strength from his weapon! [19875]
Prophecies's Guardian Angel smote Gwim Weaper (11770)
Gwim Weaper bruised Prophecies with A Q-Tip [108298]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [40]
Gwim Weaper draws strength from his weapon! [21651]
Prophecies's Guardian Angel smote Gwim Weaper (12452)
Gwim Weaper bruised Prophecies with A Q-Tip [75439]
Cloudscape absorbs damage [1]
Gwim Weaper draws strength from his weapon! [15087]
Prophecies's Guardian Angel smote Gwim Weaper (8872)
It seems to me that there will be a blow that gets the PL minion down to 1 HP and if he tries to use PL after that will then absorb 1 damage and die.
Perhaps on the battles where my PL minion has 1 hp left is the last time he attempts to absorb damage as the battle ends that round.
I don't think it's that. :/
Dutigirn takes damage from his own Decay (3707)!
Dutigirn's Decay hit Aelwyn [54]
Awen takes damage from his own Fireball (2919)!
Awen's Fireball hit Aelwyn [11206], Dutigirn [3472], Talhearn [4055]
Awen absorbs damage [2494]
Awen absorbs damage [25]
R.I.P. Awen
Aelwyn mistimed his attack at Talhearn
Awen ended on zero HP in this fight. I've no idea where the [2494] and final [25] came from, she should have been absorbing the full [3472] and/or [4055] (as both under her PL limit) or up to as much from the first as not to kill her... :/
BadFish
July 19 2006 12:48 PM EDT
I just read this thread and realized that the fight against Catfish Keith was me, baby! i'm famous!
Here's an example where PL appears to malfunction (this is the first melee round, not ranged):
[My side]
Pina clove 3 with Ursus horribilis Rex [158647]
2 absorbs damage [115958]
3's Guardian Angel smote Pina (17193)
Pina clove 3 with Ursus horribilis Rex [107105]
2 absorbs damage [1159]
3's Guardian Angel smote Pina (20758)
Pina carved into 3 with Ursus horribilis Rex [131828]
2 absorbs damage [11]
3's Guardian Angel smote Pina (21584)
Imia's familiar takes damage from his own Magic missile (40404)!
Imia's familiar's Magic missile hit 1 BOOM!'s familiar [213750]
[Defender's side]
1 BOOM!'s familiar's Guardian Angel smote Imia's familiar (32215)
1 BOOM!'s familiar takes damage from his own Fireball (80934)!
1 BOOM!'s familiar's Fireball hit Pina [65970], Imia's familiar [112090], 3 [52095]
Pina absorbs damage [99360]
3's Guardian Angel smote 1 BOOM!'s familiar (25303)
R.I.P. 2
The issue is that 2 should have died here: "Pina clove 3 with Ursus horribilis Rex [107105]; 2 absorbs damage [1159]" Since 2 didn't absorb the full damage by a massive amount, it'd be safe to say that 2 is dead. However, 2 lives to absorb against the next his for another, what, 11 hp? That's bogus. He's obviously dead, as the fireball from 1's familiar doesn't hit 2.
I've noticed my PL minion having tons of odd smaller amounts of HP left. I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet but:
I think the 10% damage reduction comes off after its been decided how much damage you are moving. In other words, say someone hits Prophecies for 100K and Cloudscape has 30K left. Cloudscape absorbs 30K of that 100K, but it actually only does 27K damage (prophecies takes the other 70K). So now Cloudscape has 3K left. If that happens a two more times, Cloudscape has 3 left.
It doesn't always seem to happen this way though. I think it only happens if you have more PL than HP left.
This is a great way to deal with tanks getting 786786876876 multiple hits on you. If your PL minion is being stubborn and won't die with its 30 HP left, and a tank attacks him, all multiple hits for that round will be sunk into a measly 30 HP minion............................... I am liking that.............
Only what the PL minion can absorb though. A 30HP minion will only absorb 30 HP from those gazillion tank hits! ;)
He's talking about the minion actually getting hit, not absorbtion. So minion 1 gets hit, minion 2 absorbs some of the damage. Minion 1 lives two rounds because of PL, however on the last hit of the second round it's enough to kill him, PL fails to absorb. The next round the PL minion is sitting around with almost no HP left, however he still must be dispatched, and you've gained a whole round simply by using PL.
Not really.
For this to happen, the PL minion has got to be the one not being attacked.
If he's not beign attacked then lasting for another round doesn't matter, as he'll still only absorb 30 HP in total.
He won't make the minion being hit last longer, as he wouldn't absorb damage if it's enough to kill the minion being hit.
Therefore, the hits aren't enough to kill the minionbeing attacked, therefore it will last another round anyway.
The only thing this helps with is have a minion for another round of spreading FB/CoC, but with only 30 HP if you faced that anyway, you will die in the first round.
Minion 1 has 100hp
Minion 2 has 100hp with PL
Minion 3 has 100hp
Attacker hits 1, and 2 absorbs it all and gets to 1HP. 1 is unaffected. Attacker than hits 1 for 200 points of damage. 1 dies. 2 is still alive with 1HP to act as a wall for one round for minion 3, sucking up all 98797878 attacks from the multiple-hitting tank.
Also, putting a PL minion in the middle is a viable setup if the outside minions are walls with high AC.
QBRanger
July 20 2006 5:44 PM EDT
Nightstrike:
Hence my question.
In your example minion 1 dies before minion 2. But in reality what is happening is minion 2 dies before minion 1 from PL damage alone. I was wondering if that is what Jon intended or was minion 2 susposed to have 1 hp left and NOT die from PL damage absorption. Therefore minion 2 was able to act as a "blocker" for another round.
I thought PL minions were supposed to be able to absorb enough to kill them but the only rule was that they couldn't absorb if the amount that would remain would kill the targeted minion.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=07212006025951se7.png
There's a good example. Imia is my minion that has PL trained at Phantom Link: 80,005/67,801 (144,009). The first two hits received in round 1 absorb the full amount of PL. The third hit absorbs a partial amount. This leaves that minion still alive.
If, for example, I happened to get lucky and kill Ape in round 2, and the character of Constant had a CoC minion, upon entering Melee combat, I'd have an extra minion alive to suck up a huge pile of damage from the CoC while also simulatneously absorbing the remaining few hitpoints he had left.
This is a way to benefit from PL: keep your minions with virtually no HP left alive for another round to be a meatshield.
To Ranger: Is this the way it's supposed to be? I don't know. It may have started happening when the effect dropped to 1.8, or perhaps is a factor of the 10/9 damage reduction. Either way, it seems to be operating incorrectly. If I had to guess, I'd think that Imia should have just absorbed more damage in the third hit of the first round and died. I'm glad he didn't.
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