This is insane! (in Off-topic)

this is insane -> http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/08/09/kutztown.hackers.ap/index.html ... trying to expel and press felony charges on these kids because they gave themselves unrestricted access on their school issued laptops by typing in the password that was TAPED TO THE BACK OF THE LAPTOPS!

ridiculous!

It's like setting a juicy bone in front of a dog and it to not get eaten...

I remember reading a short article about this a while ago. The thing I remember most was the comment from the school stating that they were working with police officials...why not work with the parents? Also one last thing, it says that at least ONE kid was caught downloading porn....ONE? Sounds to me like the school was lucky, I know if the same thing happened at my high school the number would be a lot closer to 3 digits.

Only in america.

"Parents thought we should reward them for being creative. We don't accept that." - can you guess which wing this guy's tipped towards?

There is much more wrong with this then the charges. .. I'd rant, but I have a feeling it'd get really long and no one would read it. Needless to say, creativity is never rewarded in the educated system, and nothing makes people more mad than being shown up.

Kudos to these kids. I can bypass all of my school's security features, deep freeze and the websites we cant go to, but have no intention of doing so.

Was it wrong? Yes. Should they be punished? Of course. I would suggest they help the school get better security. That's the best thing to do, have someone great at hacking and such attempt to break through security, and anything that doesn't hold up gets fixed. The school needs to have tighter school, since it said multiple students had been punished for misuse. Their fault, not the kids. Again, not claiming the kids are innocent, but they should have to help the school, since it's obviously incapable of stopping a good number of kids.

... and I already started my rant. At least it's literate.. but I'm not going to elaborate further.. I always do like hearing about things like this though, people suing others for their own stupidity. If you come across something like this again, don't forget to post it.

I forgot to mention that CNN should never be trusted. Take this story with a grain of salt.

RareSumo this story is VERY truy, I know someone who lives 15 miles from that town and its big news in that area.

Holy crap.. I'm glad I'm not in high school anymore.. I hacked in to our school network multiple times. One time, without any evidence, the system administrator teacher guy took me aside and yelled at me that I shouldn't be messing with their computers.

It was quite fun actually, near the end of the year, I had managed to figure out the best way to 'hack' the computers without them suspecting me since many other more obvious 'hacker-wannabes' were in class to take the hit instead. Good times, good times. Although that was in the days of DOS and Win 3.1, so it was alot easier to manipulate networks then.

Most fun was when we installed master-minion program on all the PCs, and we could view and control all the pcs in the room. Great fun.

I'll post the same thing here I posted on CB1.

Sounds like they were using the laptops for things they knew they shouldn't have been doing, had been punished for doing these things previous to the expulsion, and they signed a waiver saying they wouldn't do these things when they took ownership of the machines. "It points out that students and parents were required to sign a code of conduct and acceptable use policy, which contained warnings of legal action." - CNN

At my office that kind of crap will get you fired and legal action taken against you depending on the violation. Who cares if the admin password was on the bottom of the notebook, if I hand you the key to my house and you take it and steal my stuff, you're still guilty as sin. Sounds like the kids shot themselves in the foot, better learn this now as opposed to when theyre adults.

Tez, I for one am not saying they did something good or anything, but the school surely could have seen this coming if they would have just talked to other schools who have worked with loaning computers to students. Yes, they were doing stuff they knew was wrong, and they got busted, I agree, punish them...but charge them with a felony? Expulsion is definately the farthest I would go. Also before I got there, I think I'd atleast CALL the parents to talk to them about it, all they did was send them home with detention notices that had "Misuse of Computer" as the reason for detention. I'm sure the parents cared about as much as mine did when I got detention for "talking in class". Had the parents realized how seriously the school was considering the kids tampering with the computers I'm sure much of this could have been dealt with through much less costly (the courts are full enough without schools pressing charges against misbehaving kids) and harsh punishments.

Oh, lastly what harm did they really cause? As I said, not saying they were in the right, and they should get punished, but sence nothing they did was overtly harmfull why punish through the courts?

Similar thing happened to me. They threatened me with expulsion and charging me with some crazy thing for giving myself full access to the school computers. It was great, instead of all that I got 1 day ISS because I fixed the problem and told them how to prevent it from happening in the future.

Messing with computers is a big No-no now. They can charge you under the Patriot Act for hacking which could mean life in prison, being held without a trial, etc. So I don't screw around with that stuff at all anymore.

KUTZTOWN!!!!!!!!!!

lol I watch them in the NCAA Division 2 champion ship whenever they're there. ;)


and oh...OUTRAGEOUS

Raresumo

Parents thought we should reward them for being creative. We don't accept that." - can you guess which wing this guy's tipped towards?

-That is so utterly stupid I really don't know how to reply. I'm at a loss for words, RS.

There is much more wrong with this then the charges. .. I'd rant, but I have a feeling it'd get really long and no one would read it. Needless to say, creativity is never rewarded in the educated system, and nothing makes people more mad than being shown up.

-This isn't creativity, it's malicious stupidity. Should we reward children for finding inventive ways to break into lockers, pick the locks on the doors or make explosives in Chemistry class?

Kudos to these kids. I can bypass all of my school's security features, deep freeze and the websites we cant go to, but have no intention of doing so.

-The problem isn't the ability to screw with the computer network, it's how the students in question used their abilities to change access levels, crack passwords, access forbidden websites, alter the contents of their computers, etc. These kids knew the rules, signed off on them (with the knowledge and consent of their parents) and still went ahead with everything.

What the hell are schools issuing computers to kids for, anyway! I never got that crap when I was in High School. Okay, okay... So, I can't say it is a horrible idea, or that I am against advancements in education. But at least do something a little more intelligent than taping the passwords to the back of the computers.

Do you know what that tells me? It tells me that the school system must have wanted to catch the kids "with their hands in the cookie jar." I mean, with all seriousness, what the hell did they expect? The passwords are going to be hard to remember for 600 computers. Hey, I've got an idea, they probably thought, let's just use the address of the school with an arbitrary number taped to the back of every PC. So, instead of actually implementing some security measures that might be worth a damn, let's issue a policy that tells KIDS that they will get in some serious trouble if they misuse the computer.

Yes. If I do some dumb crap like circumventing a security system at work, I could be fired or sent to jail. BUT I AM AN ADULT. And people my age still do stupid things and go to jail, but they've had their chance. I'm sure they did stupid things in High School too, and got in trouble then too. I'm sure that the punishment fit the crime as well. And I am also a firm believer that there were other kids who got in trouble right beside them and they learned their lesson. They don't break the law as adults.

I have so many more relevant things to say, but I am so surprised at how furious this has made me that I'm just going to drop it for now.

InebriatedArsonist

That is so utterly stupid I really don't know how to reply. I'm at a loss for words, RS.

-Yeah, and it's a personal opinion of mine that no one should be surprised you are at a lack of words. I'm not usually one for personal attacks, but it seems all you are mentally capable of is feeding off of others. I haven't talked to you much, but from what I've seen, you pretty much wait until you see something you like or dislike and can state whether you like what was said or not, but you really seem to be transparent as far as trying to hold your own in a conversation.

This isn't creativity, it's malicious stupidity. Should we reward children for finding inventive ways to break into lockers, pick the locks on the doors or make explosives in Chemistry class?

-Absolutely. Finding inventive ways to make explosives in chemistry doesn't automatically mean they are serial killers, terrorists, have intentions of blowing up the school, or anywhere else. It just shows an interest in the topic. There was no real damage done to the system, they didn't crash anything, corrupt anything, really do anything but explore. If you want to find ways to break into your locker, or a door you own, why not? I've rigged my locker so I dont have to use their lock, I can move the handle up and apply pressure to the left and it will open. I didn't think it was the most secure thing to do, so I took the pen out, but I did it just to say I did. It's not like they (try understanding the analogy at hand) learned how to break into their locker, then went around the school and opened all the lockers, destroying everything inside of them. So they opened a few lockers.. I have no trouble with the idea of them doing so. You seem simple and close-minded, with one of the most illogical mind sets I have seen in quite some time. You talk about it like you assume I have the same feelings as you on the subject, which obviously isn't so, since you felt the need to pick me out and take my post piece for piece. I'm honored, really, but at least think before posting. Should they be rewarded for it? I believe so. I went to the computer teacher and told her that all the teachers' passwords were "apple" in my middle school, and after some interrogation as to how I got it (a few friends and I were just typing in stuff), they tried to suspend me. The end result was that the passwords were changed to something more secure, each individual teacher was given a briefing of some sort (obviously I wasn't there) on how to not give out their passwords, and were given individual, secure ones. Did I get suspended? Nope. Should I be considered a felon for doing that? Nope. Although I did turn it in, as opposed to seeing what I could do, the reasonable thing would be to not punish them for something they didn't do. It also says, "The youths could face a wide range of sanctions, including juvenile detention, probation and community service." ... Probation should be an absolute extreme in this case, and community service is practically what I suggested be done, but in the field of network security. There was a similar case where they were issued drug tests and all sorts of stuff that really just wasn't necessary.

The problem isn't the ability to screw with the computer network, it's how the students in question used their abilities to change access levels, crack passwords, access forbidden websites, alter the contents of their computers, etc. These kids knew the rules, signed off on them (with the knowledge and consent of their parents) and still went ahead with everything.

Did you read the article? I'm really wondering this as my post goes on. Here's what I read they did;

obtain unrestricted Internet access - Oh wow. Run > cmd > Ping the website > type the ip addy into the url bar.. wow.. felony? I don't think so.

students began downloading such forbidden programs as the popular iChat instant-messaging tool. - Yup, this one takes the cake. Those cyber terrorists... Instant Messaging. What a crime. Punishable by death in texas, or at least it should be.

At least one student viewed pornography. - I see this at my high school all the time, I cant post links, obviously, but people find new ways to get to shock sites like goatse, tubgirl, lemonparty, and all of the other stuff far worse than porn in my high school, and most have never been bothered about it. At least one student.. Whatever will we do when high school students start getting to see a boob here and there. What has the world come to?

Some students also turned off the remote monitoring function and turned the tables on their elders-- using it to view administrators' own computer screens. - This.. This is the first and -only- thing I read that was worth punishing them for. The people that messed with the remote monitoring did so for a reason, and it was a malicious act with a purpose. The rest of the stuff? Not even worth scoffing at. Slap on the wrist, maybe. Suspension, and revoked computer priviliges at best for these kids.

The point isn't even whether they get punished or not. It's the fact that they are being hit with felony charges over being curious.

Also, I may be the only one to say this, because of intimidation or maybe I'm the only one.. but I think someone should have dropkicked you off of your high horse a long time ago. I've not heard one thing from you that was an intelligent though from you, yourself. You can take someone else's view and manipulate it, whether it be from disagreeing or agreeing to it, but never have I seen you come up with a thought of your own. You are a kool-aid drinker, and you disappoint me. I have a feeling this post is getting deleted, or modded in someway, but I will see to it that it is available to all those interested. I will not be censored, and I will not just accept whatever you say, like I have seen others do around here. I refuse to accept your opinion for even an opinion's worth. I'm done ranting, done with this topic, and especially done with IA.

If you at this point have no idea why your post made me type all that, not only do you give off that wonderful elitist vibe I hate so much, but you picked someone out, and leeched. I don't care if it's me, or anyone else. Why not just state your opinion and just leave it at that? You don't have to dissect others' posts, as I'm sure somewhere you have the ability to make a post of your own. Obviously you have the ability to form an opinion, now all you have to do is learn about fire and the wheel.

And because of the length of this post, I didn't reread it so.. I'm sure I repeated myself multiple times on the "IA needs to get a brain" front, so I apologize for anyone trying to read this and that's all that was really in it.

The felony issue is rather interesting.

As a kid who got hit, intimidated, and made to feel like garbage a great deal in high school, I quickly had to grasp the fact that high school was not like the "real world". No police were going to help me out, hitting and yelling were not considered "assault", and intimidation, no matter how many folks were involved, would never be taken to court as "coercion" or "conspiracy".

High School is like Thunderdome, only, in most cases, the same number of kids come out that went in.

So with all of the other felonies going on every day behind the High School doors, why are these kids being slapped with charges as if they were out in the "real world". High School is like Vegas...what happens there stays there. The school and parents should work together to find the proper disciplinary action to take, and felonies should have nothing to do with it. Am I missing something?

A lesson I learned
I had one of the best teachers I've ever met in school, she had the ability to think outside the box, as this RareSumo guy seems to be doing. The things she said made me respect her very much, and she treated us kids as equals. She was a softball coach, a mathematics teacher, and also taught programming. I took a math class with her, and learned a great deal. I took a programming class with her and learned a great deal.

She knew how smart the kids in her little computer class were, she knew that alot of the kids could infiltrate the computer network and do whatever they wanted. But I guess what always stuck in my mind was this: She told us kids "Don't be stupid" and "Don't get caught".

Basically, she gave us free reign to do whatever we wanted with the computers in front of us. If she caught us doing anything stupid or not allowed, she would make sure we were punished. Which was interesting, because it put the onus on us as kids to regulate ourselves.

We understood the regulations on computer use, and understood when we were crossing the line. The message she gave us was short and sweet, yet gave us great depth of understanding in what to do should we see fit to go beyond the rules.

It is rather closed minded to think that everyone who goes outside of the standard set of rules is doing so for malicious intent and should be punished to the same extent that someone who actually is being malicious should. It is a very nuanced opinion, and is obviously up for debate, and it is very difficult to convey in a forum such as this.

<I>High School is like Thunderdome, only, in most cases, the same number of kids come out that went in.</I> Two man enter one man leave, two man enter, one man lave... WHO RUNS BARTER TOWN?!?! master blaster....

After a few congratulatory CMs I thought I'd post a follow-up. Chet and Verifex make really good points, if you beat up someone in the real world, cops get involved. I've seen pretty bad fights in school and there is either a talk with the principal, which no one minds since you get out of class, or a suspension is issued. School is nothing like the real world, it's a controlled environment with its own sets of rules and consequences. Also, a few people told me that IA deserved the flaming, but I really didn't want it to just be a flame. I'm not a flamer and just felt that out of the well-off players in this game, IA is the only one who really needed to be humbled.

Mikel, for instance, was resented for his growth. Everyone hated that he bought his way to the top, and (ab)used the FF as well. From what I had heard, it sounded like he was just some rich kid who came in, bought his way to the top, and acted like he was god for it. After talking to Mikel a few times, nothing in-depth or really deep, just conversing, I've noticed that Mikel's attitude isn't really what I was lead to believe it was.

Ranger, as well. I thought ranger would be the guy who doesn't chat with anyone because he's too busy watching auctions, calculating the best way to make his BA, and just a strong business man. Not saying he isn't a strong business man, but at least that's not all there is to the man.

IA, however, has always been exactly as I thought Mikel and Ranger would be. Whenever IA talks, I feel that he thinks he is better than everyone else, and that his opinion should be valued over anyone else's. I apologize if my post sounded like a flame, it really wasn't intended to, but it's kind of hard to try to hold a conversation with someone when they are thinking in their head about how much they are above you. I get this vibe from IA, and it seems that his conservative opinion is actually in the minority. I'm not saying he is wrong, or that I'm any more right than he is, I am just stating that I would have run the scenario differently if I was in charge, and I seem to be in the majority in that most people seem to agree felony charges are really unnecessary. Again, I didn't mean for that to be a flame, just an attempt to humble the only top player that I've seen that has needed it.